dbomberger Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 Getting ready to pull the trigger on an Integrated Tube Amplifier. One that does not have a phono stage. As a tube newbie I have much to learn and apparently to stew over. I had been considering the McIntosh MA252, but someone here or elsewhere commented that the built in the Phono Stage the tubes are bypassed when listening through said phono stage. This was just confirmed by a McIntosh rep who was asked by the dealer. I'm not even sure what that means given that I've listened twice to the MA252 with Vinyl and was impressed-but I'm anxious to know more. However I'm likely to buy something for about the same price without the built-in phono stage. So my question remains. Is the extra cost of a tube based phono stage going to add even more to the experience? I suspect this like so much else is subjective, but I'm anxious to hear from the learned, knowledgeable, guessers and mystics. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 Don't fit into your listed groups but here goes. I replaced my entire stereo almost two years ago now, it was all from the early 1990s. Went with new ss stuff that didn't have the phono support. Tried one complete analog setup rejected it and got a tt without any amp in it, then a dual tube phono preamp. The knowledgeable folks here told me it was a waste unless I went with a certain type that I found $$$ dollar wise. The $$ one in my profile does a fantastic job of imparting those particular tones that we know as coming from tubes. Made records that I'd just recently heard for the first time in 5 or 6 years without a tt sound so much better with the best timbre, rich bass resonance, realistic vocals yada, yada, yada... Not sure if it would work conversely with a ss phono pre through a tube amplifier, so stick with the tubes if you can! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 I've had tube preamps with phono stages, good ones. But now I find I like the flexibility of a good external phono stage and either a "passive" preamp or a tube line stage preamp. I switch back and forth. I've got a MC cartridge so low noise and step up beyond the typical MM cart. is important. With the solid state external phono stage I find it lends it self to trying different things. I've now tried at least 4 different preamps in the past year. A good external phono stage will let you try different cartridges without being locked in also. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Dedicated phono pre is more flexible and versatile, integrated photo stages are a compromise... generally speaking. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Not a simple A or B question. You want your gear to compliment one another. You want synergy. So, it depends on what cartridge, amplifier(s) and speakers you use. In my case, I use a high output moving coil cartridge, tube phono pre, a passive linestage, tube mono blocks and very high efficiency horn speakers. I changed the caps in the phono pre, not only to a lot better caps, but also, some values to work better with the passive linestage. The output caps were entirely too small for the linestage because it has a dynamic input impedance that can go as low as 10.4K. So, the .9uF was replaced with 4.7uF Mundorf Supreme Silver. That gets the phono pre to play nicely with the passive linestage. Why a passive linestage? The speakers are around 100dB efficient. They don't need a lot of power. My 845 tube amps have an output of 22 watts. A preamp with gain meant my volume was zero at 6 o'clock and too loud to stay in the room at 9 o'clock. Not much control at all. The passive linestage means I have a usable volume range from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock. You see how each piece interacts with the next and how each component has a reasoning in the mix. Think about each piece in your system and how they interact with each other and what it is you like to hear. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Wardsweb said: Not a simple A or B question. You want your gear to compliment one another. You want synergy. So, it depends on what cartridge, amplifier(s) and speakers you use. In my case, I use a high output moving coil cartridge, tube phono pre, a passive linestage, tube mono blocks and very high efficiency horn speakers. I changed the caps in the phono pre, not only to a lot better caps, but also, some values to work better with the passive linestage. The output caps were entirely too small for the linestage because it has a dynamic input impedance that can go as low as 10.4K. So, the .9uF was replaced with 4.7uF Mundorf Supreme Silver. That gets the phono pre to play nicely with the passive linestage. Why a passive linestage? The speakers are around 100dB efficient. They don't need a lot of power. My 845 tube amps have an output of 22 watts. A preamp with gain meant my volume was zero at 6 o'clock and too loud to stay in the room at 9 o'clock. Not much control at all. The passive linestage means I have a usable volume range from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock. You see how each piece interacts with the next and how each component has a reasoning in the mix. Think about each piece in your system and how they interact with each other and what it is you like to hear. Very good advice - I follow a similar path. Denon DL103 into a Quicksilver SUT into either modified Quicksilver or EAR 834 clone phono preamps into either Schiit Saga (passive with a tube buffer to lower output impedance) or Transformer Volume Control (TVC) Passive Preamps driving either 845, 300B, 2A3 or EL84 Single Ended amps powering my Lowthers or modified Belles. System synergy is the key. YMMV. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Definitely agree with the above regarding system synergy, but in your case being a tube newbie, I would also consider simplicity. There are many integrated amps out there that have outstanding phono stages and making a generalization that they are a "compromise" is misleading. The Mcintosh that you have listened to, and been impressed with, seems to fit with what you are looking for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Let me ask you this: what turntable/cartridge and speakers are you using? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbomberger Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 5 hours ago, Wardsweb said: Let me ask you this: what turntable/cartridge and speakers are you using? At the moment I'm using a vintage '77 Pioneer PL570 with a new Grado cart (can't remember at the moment if its Blue or the next level up-which I believe it is. While it sounds great to me, as I'm in the process of moving up to a more modern TT sometime in the not to distant future. I have new Forte III's I'm currently listening to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 35 minutes ago, dbomberger said: At the moment I'm using a vintage '77 Pioneer PL570 with a new Grado cart (can't remember at the moment if its Blue or the next level up-which I believe it is. While it sounds great to me, as I'm in the process of moving up to a more modern TT sometime in the not to distant future. I have new Forte III's I'm currently listening to. So you don't need mega power and the Forte's have good bottom end. Your phono stage will be noticed in the mids and highs. A tube pre will take the edge off your highs just a bit. So if you find your treble a bit too much, that may be a good thing. If you yearn for ultra high sizzle, a solid state phono pre lends itself to more, to the point of shrill. All this depending on your source vinyl and how it was mastered, but generally speaking tubes give you warm without being dull and solid state can get edgy on horns. I like high end sizzle and my tube phono pre with large horns sounds wonderful. Either way, you really can't go wrong. It's more a personal taste kind of thing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbomberger Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 25 minutes ago, Wardsweb said: So you don't need mega power and the Forte's have good bottom end. Your phono stage will be noticed in the mids and highs. A tube pre will take the edge off your highs just a bit. So if you find your treble a bit too much, that may be a good thing. If you yearn for ultra high sizzle, a solid state phono pre lends itself to more, to the point of shrill. All this depending on your source vinyl and how it was mastered, but generally speaking tubes give you warm without being dull and solid state can get edgy on horns. I like high end sizzle and my tube phono pre with large horns sounds wonderful. Either way, you really can't go wrong. It's more a personal taste kind of thing. Thanks for the info. I'm leaning toward the tube pre. Do you have some suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wdecho Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 You may want to consider what I just purchased for $250 with a built in SS pre, Fluance rt81. Then you may be thinking on going up the ladder to something more pricey. The Fluance has a lot to offer for what it cost. A decent tube phono pre gets pricey as you may already know. It is not an easy task to make and sell a nice quiet phono preamplifier using tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbomberger Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, wdecho said: You may want to consider what I just purchased for $250 with a built in SS pre, Fluance rt81. Then you may be thinking on going up the ladder to something more pricey. The Fluance has a lot to offer for what it cost. A decent tube phono pre gets pricey as you may already know. It is not an easy task to make and sell a nice quiet phono preamplifier using tubes. Thanks. I'll look into that, I have run into the name recently amid my searches. Price is definitely right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 What price range are you considering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtmudd Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 On 8/15/2018 at 9:54 PM, Schu said: Dedicated phono pre is more flexible and versatile, integrated photo stages are a compromise... generally speaking. Just like any marriage ... It's a compromise.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wdecho Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 11 hours ago, dbomberger said: Thanks. I'll look into that, I have run into the name recently amid my searches. Price is definitely right. The Fluance has the look and feel of the turntables of old. Belt driven which I prefer with an excellent tone arm. One test one can do is to neutral balance the arm where it is parallel to the platter without touching with the anti skate set to zero and then start turning the anti skate control and see how long it takes for the tone arm to move to the outside. The Fluance starts moving immediately, I tried it. I've read that the other popular around same priced turntable, the Technics AT-LP120 will not pass this test. Either not as good arm or antiskate. Maybe good enough but then maybe not. The direct drive of the Technics also makes some noise others have complained about. I was tempted to purchase the Technic's, especially when it was on sale for $240 but after doing some more research decided on the Fluance for performance and money. There are some reviews on youtube about the Fluance by some respected reviewers as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbomberger Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 9 hours ago, TubeHiFiNut said: What price range are you considering? I'm pretty flexible. I imagine I'll get $600-700 for my current TT and I can spend a little more than that when I'm ready. Kind of like to keep it under 2K if I can help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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