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added HT amp but... not much diff?


-js-

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I've been thinking a while about adding an amp to my Integra AVR primarily to add low end response from my L-R Cornwalls when watching movies.  (we don't currently play much 2 ch, much more movies than music.)  I had a lead 1-2 days ago that didn't pan out, but found another item to replace that lead - a Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Edition 7 ch for what seems like a really good price considering what I've seen them advertised for, and what some of the sold listings on the b a y show.

 

I've talked with a few of you via PM & really appreciate your thoughts, feedback, suggestions & all that.  missing that lead on the Carver M1.5t to run just the CW has me more ready to go ahead & get something, esp since the GF [now, wife to be :-)] is on board.  (do it before she changes her mind?  I don't THINK she reads the forum... at least not that I know of lol)

thanks for your input.  -JS

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Great amp IMO.  I had one(5 channel) for about a month and would still have it if I was not so amp heavy at the time.  Warmish with great dynamics and very cool running.

I'll bet most who have experience with these will agree with my assessment.   I had the 19" version and not sure if it was Signature Edition.

 

Bill

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12 minutes ago, K5SS said:

Add a subwoofer, to handle the low end! 😉

 

I've considered it, but don't really have the room for it.  I do have room in the "rack" (WAF approved entertainment ctr) for an amp so going that route.

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10 hours ago, rebuy said:

A Good Amp will make your system sound better than a sub.

 

That’s one point of view but definitely not fact. We all have different versions of what sounds “better”.

 

I have been on an experimental journey and I have tried just about every possible combination out there and I can tell you that a properly integrated subwoofer can make a world of difference. Especially when the area the OP is specifically looking to improve his low end performance. 

 

I have added and removed about 7 multichannel amplifiers and have tested out about 25 quality subwoofers these last 5 years. There is likely no better place for the money to be spent on home theater, than on a subwoofer and center channel, I’m my opinion. 

 

I am also an advocate for multichannel amplifiers but there have been times where I couldn’t hear much of a difference adding power amplifiers to a top shelf receiver. 

 

I think the OP should do both but sounds like he doesn’t have space for a sub. Adding an amplifier will probably make a nice improvement in sound, just not sure it will provide the low end, he is in search of. 

 

If space is tight, check out a sub like the SVS PC-4000, which takes up very little floor space. 

 

Just want to help you maximize your $/performance ratio OP🤑

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gotcha.  thanks for the ideas.  the fiance is ok with adding an amp but less so about adding a sub - much less my thinking multiple subs, even though there's not much floor space for the 1st one much less the 2nd.

 

waiting to hear back from a seller on a diff proposed purchase on an Acurus 200x3.  yes I know - I seem to change horses a lot.  but the proposed price on the Acurus was less than the Sunfire.  don't really need more than 2 ch right now.  if we add a center down the road, that's maybe a 3rd ch.  the other ch available on the Sunfire wouldn't be used in the foreseeable future.  so I'm leaning toward saving the coin & going with the Acurus, and we'll see how that works out.

 

and yes, maybe down the road - we WILL get that sub.  or THOSE subs 🙂  don't think it's gonna be right now.  but thanks for the suggestions

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thanks Bill.  while I had thought a Carver Sunfire might be the end-all be-all for all HT amps, and it may still be - to find one & have it thoroughly checked out - it just felt better to save a few bux & go with the Acurus.

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  • -js- changed the title to added HT amp but... not much diff?

so, I've been a little busy, and am now coming back to this.  (also - changed thread title, but maybe beside the point).  I did close the deal & rec'd my Acurus 200x3 amp & have added it to my system.  BUT in HT, I don't sense a lot of difference.  could be placebo effect that makes me think it has helped to some extent but it does not seem to be really noticeable.

btw - I've connected my L & R thru the Acurus leaving the 3rd ch unused atm, and run my CW from it.  I have not tested any 2 ch on it yet.  we just don't use it a lot for 2 ch I am kinda sorry to say.  (part of that may be cuz I like it kinda loud, and makes conversation difficult.  I don't mind it much but the fiance would rather we talk.  I'm sure you know what I mean.  anyway - for 2 ch, I've read someone say that I should dbl check AVR stereo mode for 2 ch sources to make sure it plays only 2 ch.  that may not be the case right now, as I thought it would be fun to run all ch stereo.  I'm not getting great performance from my mains like this, so I think I need to change that.

 

anyway - my point:  any advice now that I've added the amp but do not seem to be getting the low end emphasis or improvement that I thought I would get.  where to look?

and one of these days I may get around to the how-much-power-voltage-is-really-needed test to see how much voltage I'm actually getting at the mains.  but in the interim, any other ideas?

thanks.

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28 minutes ago, -js- said:

btw - I've connected my L & R thru the Acurus leaving the 3rd ch unused atm, and run my CW from it.  I have not tested any 2 ch on it yet.  we just don't use it a lot for 2 ch I am kinda sorry to say. 

Try them in stereo just for kicks.  The main thing I noticed when I first got my Acurus A150 was the low end punch.  I was astounded.  My buddy who had Cornwalls borrowed one of my Acurus A150s and believe me, they thumped like they never had before.

 

Bill

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7 minutes ago, willland said:

Try them in stereo just for kicks.  The main thing I noticed when I first got my Acurus A150 was the low end punch.  I was astounded.  My buddy who had Cornwalls borrowed one of my Acurus A150s and believe me, they thumped like they never had before.

 

Bill

 

haven't gotten around to trying that out yet, but I will.  I bet you're right, given the discussions I've read about AVR power vs dedicated amp channel power.  need to block out some time & do that.  thanks Bill.

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If I might opine....separate amp(s), when used with and compared to, an AVR does make a good deal of difference in movie mode. BUT, in movie mode you absolutely need a center to match up with the L&R AND a sub woofer. Yes, a phantom center can sound better than just L&R but you really need a dedicated center (redundancy alert: that matches the L&R, get that or don't waste the money because you will want a match later).

 

I have found that a lot of amplifiers will fulfill the movie mode / surround sound whether 3.0 or 7.0 for us guys with non-uber expensive, dedicated rooms (read living room with wife)  where two channel has always been more picky about the equipment I used.

I see you have Cornwalls, me too (now after Heresy, Chorus IIs, Forte II, LaScala, Belles, KHorns), and I will tell you that for movies you need a sub and I would submit that REGARDLESS of the L/R/C brand / model you use, you need a sub. It makes a helluva impact.

Not pimping a brand, even though I currently use it, take a look at SVS subs. Could you hide a cylinder somewhere.

Get a sub, get a sub,  get a sub

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34 minutes ago, USNRET said:

If I might opine....separate amp(s), when used with and compared to, an AVR does make a good deal of difference in movie mode. BUT, in movie mode you absolutely need a center to match up with the L&R AND a sub woofer. Yes, a phantom center can sound better than just L&R but you really need a dedicated center (redundancy alert: that matches the L&R, get that or don't waste the money because you will want a match later).

 

I have found that a lot of amplifiers will fulfill the movie mode / surround sound whether 3.0 or 7.0 for us guys with non-uber expensive, dedicated rooms (read living room with wife)  where two channel has always been more picky about the equipment I used.

I see you have Cornwalls, me too (now after Heresy, Chorus IIs, Forte II, LaScala, Belles, KHorns), and I will tell you that for movies you need a sub and I would submit that REGARDLESS of the L/R/C brand / model you use, you need a sub. It makes a helluva impact.

Not pimping a brand, even though I currently use it, take a look at SVS subs. Could you hide a cylinder somewhere.

Get a sub, get a sub,  get a sub

I agree. It's not really an HT without a center and a sub 😀

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4 hours ago, -js- said:

any advice now that I've added the amp but do not seem to be getting the low end emphasis or improvement that I thought I would get. 

I can see why you wouldn't notice a difference in adding an external amp and agree with those that mention getting a subwoofer would be money better spent. Your speakers won't be able to go as low as a subwoofer and adding one can take the strain off of your AVR--That said, your cornwalls don't take much to drive and more than likely you aren't even coming close to maxing out your avr unless you have a huge room. 

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6 hours ago, -js- said:

anyway - my point:  any advice now that I've added the amp but do not seem to be getting the low end emphasis or improvement that I thought I would get.  where to look?

and one of these days I may get around to the how-much-power-voltage-is-really-needed test to see how much voltage I'm actually getting at the mains.  but in the interim, any other ideas

I have tried multiple amps like Yamaha, Carver and Acurus with an avr and compared to the avr alone.  If the speaker is getting enough power, there is no more low end to get without using tone control or something else to increase the bass.  A good sub can deliver a better 35 Hz and under.  This is more noticeable in movies.  The question is, what do you really mean by more low end?  When I think of low end for movies, it comes down to chairs shaking, pressure in the ears and chest, air moving around the room.  Loud bass can be achieved by a sub or speaker capable in the 65 to 130 Hz range.

 

The Integra is a good avr and the amp may not add much IMHO.  A 200 watt amp is only 3 db louder thnt an avr or amp of 100 watts.  This is only a slight increase in volume.  To double the volume, you need 10X the power or go from 100 watts to 1000 watts, Wow!  Most of the large Klipsch speakers don't need much power .  I have a  4300 to 4600 cu ft. HT and the never use 200 watts/ch for HT.  I turn the system up to reference level quite often so things are running full blast.  I do use subs since a subwoofer can play lower, louder and more accurate than a woofer.

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thanks all - Bill @willland, Mike @USNRET, Bill @Ceptorman, @Zen Traveler, Derrick @derrickdj1, and even @babadono for your attempt to contribute [ keep trying 😛]

 

room is not very large at all - open floor plan, kit, LR & "informal DR" all in one, about 900 sf altogether.  the fiance has mentioned a few times a desire for a center, so this may be the next addition, especially it seems consent may be an easy win on this.

 

Mike yes, that hella impact is what I'd like to experience.  I might be able to hide a cylinder somewhere.  will have to keep this in mind,  engage a little imagination & see what I can come up with.  and I acknowledge it's not a true HT by any means - improved lower end responsiveness - to the point of feeling some bass slam - is what I'm chasing.  we all have our things, right?  I guess this clearly is one of mine.

 

Derrick - what I'm searching for in low end is beginning to literally feel the lower frequency impact - primarily in movies etc - explosions, earthquakes, dinosaur roars, spaceship effects, etc.  our favorites are, in case not obvious - both Star Trek & Star Wars, Jurassic series, Aliens & so on. not feeling it really at all now, and I want to expand the full range of special effects.  I do not feel knowledgeable re frequencies, but I follow numerous discussions about them.  so I agree in concept that I think I am looking to improve the 65 - 130 Hz range, feeling the vibes in the seating, feeling the chest thump, some pressure in the ears (none now) and so on.  sounds to me that these are the things of which you speak in the 65 - 130 range.

 

and therefore to achieve what I'm chasing, a center & one or more subs are the next order of biz.  either make a place for them, find a place, or accept status quo as it is until these can be done.  would that be an accurate takeaway from all this?  and again - thanks ALL for your input & helping me learn more about this "hobby" - fascination (obsession?)

 

-John

 

edit:  will have to get a pic of our room layout when the room is 'presentable' for photo ops.  you know how that goes guys - even the photos have to have WAF.

with 3x canine babies, they can wreck a room in no time at all.  thanks again for all your help.  much appreciated.

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I have Aura bass shakers in my sectional couch.  They will give you some vibration.  A sub does not have to set net to the front speakers.  I use one as an end table.  I also have one behind the couch as a sofa table with decorations on it.  Be creative.😊(note center of couch with marble sofa table behind it, he, he)

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looking at your room Derrick @derrickdj1, it seems almost obvious that subwoofer bass is not affected by furniture, judging by placement of the one sub disguised as a sofa table.

that opens more possibilities.  as well as the SVS PC model subs Mike suggested.  and then there's the whole Pandora's box of DIY subs, which would probably save cash in exchange for sweat - which is fine with me.  I'm all over that.  will have to look at SVS examples to get rough size, for placement in my room, and then probably move over to the sub forum & begin digging in over there.  at this point, judging by typical SVS SB model size, the 12"-15" cubed range looks acceptable.  now to begin the quest for WAF and budget approval.

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