Peak Power Handling of Khorn Bass Bin ? ......................

[Cut-Throat]

I am only using the KHorn Bass Bin with Oris Horns on the Top End.

The Specs on the KHorn indicate that peak power is 400 Watts.

But, I am guessing that the Limiting Component here would be the Tweeter and Mid-range.

 

Does anyone here know what the peak power handling is for the Khorn Bass Bin itself? - No Crossover - Just hooked to the Bass Bin?

 

 

[Tony Whitlow]

I am only using the KHorn Bass Bin with Oris Horns on the Top End.
The Specs on the KHorn indicate that peak power is 400 Watts.
But, I am guessing that the Limiting Component here would be the Tweeter and Mid-range.
 
Does anyone here know what the peak power handling is for the Khorn Bass Bin itself? - No Crossover - Just hooked to the Bass Bin?
 
 

100 continuous, 400 peak. That’s all you need.


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[Cut-Throat]

Quote

100 continuous, 400 peak. That’s all you need.
 

 

Yes, you repeated the Specs of the Entire Khorn, which I suspect the tweeter is the weak link in the chain.

However, I was asking only about the Bass Bin and the 15 inch woofer.

Please try again.

[garyrc]

I don't know, but someone will.

 

Peak power handling is sometimes thought of as milliseconds long.

 

At Pro-Audio in Oakland, CA, someone blew a woofer out in a Khorn bass bin, by playing Michael Jackson's "Thriller" loudly enough to be heard in San Francisco.  Several seagulls fell from the sky.  Concussions.  It was the first time a Tsunami happened in the bay.  It was in about 1983, so I guess it was a K-33E.  It was the only time I ever heard of a K-33E in a KHorn blowing. 

 

EDIT: In this case, the woofer blew but the midrange and tweeter remained unharmed.  I suspect that was because it really was bass, rather than amplifier clipping, that was responsible.  Amp clipping might have taken out the tweeter, instead.  I don't know what the power handling of the bass bin and woof alone would be, but the reason most tweeters are so vulnerable is that many of them have about a 5 watt power handling (but efficient ones can put 100 dB into a big room at that measly 5 watt, and very high frequencies are never that loud, being about 20 dB below frequency bands with average output for the musical selection, except for some electronic music, some Rock/Metal, etc. and, of course, amplifier clipping).

[Tony Whitlow]

Yes, you repeated the Specs of the Entire Khorn, which I suspect the tweeter is the weak link in the chain.
However, I was asking only about the Bass Bin and the 15 inch woofer.
Please try again.

That woofer has a .0625 excursion. If you want to pop that piston through the dust cover have at. Power specifications are listed for a reason. Twenty watts from a KHorn is deafening. Why would you possibly want with more than 100?


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[garyrc]

22 minutes ago, Tony Whitlow said:

That woofer has a .0625 excursion

 

... in the Khorn bass bin.  When Paul Klipsch was talking about it, it sounded like the excursion was that small thanks to the horn loading, rather than due to the woofer itself.  The k-33 E might be able to stand more excursion, but that's not needed in the Khorn, which, of course, is one of its virtues, achieving very low modulation distortion.

[garyrc]

@Cut-Throat , please see the EDIT I added to my post, three posts above.  Thanks.

[Cut-Throat]

2 minutes ago, garyrc said:

@Cut-Throat , please see the EDIT I added to my post, three posts above.  Thanks.

 

 

Got it !

[pzannucci]

11 hours ago, Tony Whitlow said:

That woofer has a .0625 excursion. If you want to pop that piston through the dust cover have at. Power specifications are listed for a reason. Twenty watts from a KHorn is deafening. Why would you possibly want with more than 100?


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Are you saying the k33 has only 1mm of excursion?  I don't think so.  It can move a lot more than that without damage.

[Guest wdecho]

The exact brand, specific, bass speaker used in K-horns is proprietary but from all accounts Eminence was, is, one of it's main suppliers rebranded Klipsch. This is considered a replacement for the 15" speaker used in the heritage line and from it's spec's you can get some idea of the peak power handling of K-horn bass bin. https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-kappa-15c-15-driver-4-ohm--290-459   PWK used pro drivers and speakers in the heritage line that are used  by bands that can cause deafness before destruction so I do not think you should concern yourself too much about destroying the bass speaker from too much power. You ears in a home room environment would fail first.

 

I forget the exact amount of movement in the bass bin of K-horn but from memory it is very small. The speaker is used as a compression driver with a plate (wood) in front of the speaker with a slot in it to make it a compression driver. Not much movement is needed when it is horn loaded with the benefit of less distortion. 

[boom3]

PWK stated that the peak woofer cone movement in the Klipschorn is 1/16ths of an inch, or 0.0625 inches. That's 1.588 mm. That's what is necessary, but more is possible. Eventually, the cone would hit the motorboard, but I don't recall any mention of that happening in the 40+ years I've been part of the Klipschverse.

[John Warren]

7 minutes ago, wdecho said:

I forget the exact amount of movement in the bass bin of K-horn but from memory it is very small. The speaker is used as a compression driver with a plate (wood) in front of the speaker with a slot in it to make it a compression driver. Not much movement is needed when it is horn loaded with the benefit of less distortion. 

 

And the cost of that small decrease in cone displacement, which occurs over a very narrow range of frequencies mind you, is an apocalyptically bad frequency response that makes just about everything it attempts to reproduce sound like the proverbial salami whacking the sofa.  

 

Then there's the phasing errors, oy vey!

 

The K33E can easily cross-over at 1000Hz in a direct radiator arrangement yet in the Klipschorn folded unit it's, for all intents and purposes, it's a 90-350Hz mid bass reproducer.  This is a large reduction is bandwidth and we all know that bandwidth is just an orthogonal view of transient response (those that works with filters, square-waves and quick oscilloscopes are nodding their heads now).  Higher bandwidth = better transient response.  The Klipschorn turns the K33E into a slow M-F. 

 

Recapping, there's nothing intrinsically "low distortion" associated with a woofer cone working hard into the radiation resistance of the Klipschorn throat.  The net effect is higher sensitivity over that narrow range at the expense of a whole lot of other parameters equally important to good sound. 

[John Warren]

13 hours ago, Cut-Throat said:

Does anyone here know what the peak power handling is for the Khorn Bass Bin itself? - No Crossover - Just hooked to the Bass Bin?

 

The most likely fault mechanism is the voice coil rubbing which happens when the coil gets too hot and the glue lets go of a few turns.  The average dissipation of the woofer, in Watts, is an approximation.  

[Guest wdecho]

9 minutes ago, John Warren said:

 

And the cost of that small decrease in cone displacement, which occurs over a very narrow range of frequencies mind you, is an apocalyptically bad frequency response that makes just about everything it attempts to reproduce sound like the proverbial salami whacking the sofa.  

 

Then there's the phasing errors, oy vey!

 

The K33E can easily cross-over at 1000Hz in a direct radiator arrangement yet in the Klipschorn folded unit it's, for all intents and purposes, it's a 90-350Hz mid bass reproducer.  This is a large reduction is bandwidth and we all know that bandwidth is just an orthogonal view of transient response (those that works with filters, square-waves and quick oscilloscopes are nodding their heads now).  Higher bandwidth = better transient response.  The Klipschorn turns the K33E into a slow M-F. 

 

Recapping, there's nothing intrinsically "low distortion" associated with a woofer cone working hard into the radiation resistance of the Klipschorn throat.  The net effect is higher sensitivity over that narrow range at the expense of a whole lot of other parameters equally important to good sound. 

In other words, the ultimate effect from the design, is cleaner less distorting sound. If it is as you say PWK was wrong and you are right. The bass speaker sensitivity is approaching 100db so there is no need to make the bass horn design more efficient, a 3db gain is barely detectable. Hardly a reason to design a complicated bass bin. 

[Tony Whitlow]

Are you saying the k33 has only 1mm of excursion?  I don't think so.  It can move a lot more than that without damage.

.0625 is 1/16” hence the low distortion.


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[Shiva]

15 hours ago, Cut-Throat said:

 

Yes, you repeated the Specs of the Entire Khorn, which I suspect the tweeter is the weak link in the chain.

However, I was asking only about the Bass Bin and the 15 inch woofer.

Please try again.

I would speculate that the tweeter midrange can handle only a small fraction of wattage in comparison to the bass bin. So that 100 continuous 400 peak, would be the bass bins spec'd limit.

[pzannucci]

2 hours ago, Tony Whitlow said:

.0625 is 1/16” hence the low distortion.


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Sure it isn't about 4mm for x-max (linear)?

You say pop the coil though the dust cap..... probably 6 to 8mm for damage.

[Chief bonehead]

8 hours ago, John Warren said:

 

And the cost of that small decrease in cone displacement, which occurs over a very narrow range of frequencies mind you, is an apocalyptically bad frequency response that makes just about everything it attempts to reproduce sound like the proverbial salami whacking the sofa.  

 

Then there's the phasing errors, oy vey!

 

The K33E can easily cross-over at 1000Hz in a direct radiator arrangement yet in the Klipschorn folded unit it's, for all intents and purposes, it's a 90-350Hz mid bass reproducer.  This is a large reduction is bandwidth and we all know that bandwidth is just an orthogonal view of transient response (those that works with filters, square-waves and quick oscilloscopes are nodding their heads now).  Higher bandwidth = better transient response.  The Klipschorn turns the K33E into a slow M-F. 

 

Recapping, there's nothing intrinsically "low distortion" associated with a woofer cone working hard into the radiation resistance of the Klipschorn throat.  The net effect is higher sensitivity over that narrow range at the expense of a whole lot of other parameters equally important to good sound. 

That’s not been my experience. 

[Chief bonehead]

200 Watts 40-400. AES. 800 Watts peak. 

[Schu]

28 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

That’s not been my experience. 

What part of that observation Roy?

I am curious.