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Peak Power Handling of Khorn Bass Bin ? ......................


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12 hours ago, John Warren said:

for all intents and purposes, it's a 90-350Hz mid bass reproducer

 

If that is true, why do I get this REW curve in my room?  It looks like it's flat -- crosses the line -- at about 32 Hz, is 4 dB down at 30 Hz, and responds to 23 Hz (albeit about 9 dB down).  The Khorn is an AK4, using the K-33E, and is pushed all the way into an exceptionally strong corner(intentionally built that way with sheetrock glued to 3/4 plywood, seams staggered, on 2 x 6 studs, 12" O.C.), with a good rubber seal between Khorn and corner, in a 4,243 cu. ft. room.  I believe the gargantuan peak at 43 Hz is due to my room, because when I use a nearby subwoofer (absent here) it has a peak of just about the same size, shape and place.  Someday I may experiment with a tuned bass trap, but, you know, that 43 Hz peak may help compensate for bass drained off by mixers in the Loudness Wars.  It has "punch," so it may stay.  Above about 55 Hz, it looks like the response is about + 2.5 dB, - 2 dB, or +/- 2.25 dB.

 

I've never heard anything like "the proverbial salami whacking the sofa."  The bass is clean, tight, and rich.  At the beginning of "Fanfare for the Common Man" the timpani and bass drum have a sharp attack with a rich, deep underpinning that sounds like it goes way, way down.  I must admit, though, I've never whacked my sofa with a salami, so I may try,  just for the sake of science.  Which salami is "proverbial?" 

 

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Proverbial salami is an artisanal product, made on remote mountaintops, sourced from animals ethically raised to achieve their fullest potentials-you know, their peak pigness or cowness- and then mixed using grinders once touched by the hand of Oscar Meyer himself.

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On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:16 AM, John Warren said:

Recapping, there's nothing intrinsically "low distortion" associated with a woofer cone working hard into the radiation resistance of the Klipschorn throat.  The net effect is higher sensitivity over that narrow range at the expense of a whole lot of other parameters equally important to good sound. 

 

Nice troll. Now go back to the Bose forum.💩

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On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:44 PM, garyrc said:

 

If that is true, why do I get this REW curve in my room?  

 

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Below is the response of the Klipschorn bass unit measured by the factory.  Maximum sensitivity is between about 100-400Hz.  The correlation between that response and the one shown above is absent.

 

So why do you get that curve above?  Certainly one explanation is you don't know what your measuring.

 

 

Klipschorn.jpg

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On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:44 PM, garyrc said:

 The bass is clean, tight, and rich.  At the beginning of "Fanfare for the Common Man" the timpani and bass drum have a sharp attack with a rich, deep underpinning that sounds like it goes way, way down.  I must admit, though, I've never whacked my sofa with a salami, so I may try,  just for the sake of science.  Which salami is "proverbial?" 

 

Ya know your talking to a guy that has a couple of pair of Klipschorns here? 

 

The photo below is a simple vented enclosure (granted it's 2" thick and weighs about 300lbs) with a pair of 2226Hs.  It's a 2X15" format that most studio monitors use.  When bi-amped and outfitted with the appropriated top end, a much preferred alternative.  

 

 

 

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The large peak in the bass horn response has been dealt with to some extent in the AK-4 and -5 nets by applying a filter that knocks it down a bit.  By throwing away some sensitivity the frequency response magnitude (the flatness?) is improved.  But sensitivity is the reason why all the trouble with making the folded unit in the first place.  One could further reduce it to be "flatter" I suppose but then what's the point? 

 

 

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Guest wdecho
53 minutes ago, John Warren said:

a much preferred alternative.  

 

I will agree with you that your ported bass bin can and probably does sound really good but that statement is subjective and can depend on the type of music one listens to. Graphs and measurements are only tools, the real test is going to be a good set of ears no matter what test show. A ported bass system is not without faults of it's own, mainly a steep resonance peak some find objectionable. Personally, being subjective again, I have never heard bass that will equal a big born for clean, clear, and extremely quick sound that can equal a live performance. Pwk's main objective was to simulate a live performance in one's home and for me nothing can do that as well as a horn system. I own LaScala's and depend on a big, six cubic foot, sealed sub woofer that is set at approximately 120 hz to help out the LaScala bottom where it drops off rather steeply. I personally prefer a sealed bass unit over a port system for it's smoother decreasing drop off vs the steep peak of a port system. But that being said if I did not own my LaScala speakers I would probably be looking at a Cornscala with it's port system for a replacement. I am not a bass freak and any and all types of bass systems sound plenty good enough for me believing that bass is overrated, music lives in the mids for me. I still believe though that a full horn bass system reproduces a live performance best, being subjective again, as many others. This is a Klipsch forum and Klipsch uses all three types of systems of reproducing bass in their current line with horn bass only in two of their heritage line. Not a large seller being that they are very expensive for the average listener and big with a terrible WAF. The little lady wants speakers neatly hid in a bookcase where they are not noticeable. Full range speakers with a back loaded horn is a trend now among many audiophiles now as well. 

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Guest wdecho
1 hour ago, John Warren said:

  But sensitivity is the reason why all the trouble with making the folded unit in the first place. 

I disagree with that statement but then that is what forums are for, disagreements and discussions. I believe the objective of PWK was to simulate a live performance and to him and many others a fully horn loaded bass does that best. The bass speaker used in the Klipschorn was, is, efficient enough on it's own without needing help. Something like 98db. Easy enough to pad down the other drivers to that level without sacrificing practically anything noticeable. I own a pair of full range drivers that are 94db and I barely have to increase the volume to equal my 103db LaScala's when A/B'ing the two. Hard to believe that was the goal of PWK when he designed the K-horn bass bin. I like the looks of this bass bin myself and I bet is sounds great, for a conventional speaker. 

 

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Or a modern designed back horn loaded speaker.

 

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Horn loading is still going strong among discriminating listeners. The above pair was purchased by Nelson Pass a few years back and I would consider him to be a discriminating listener with trained hearing after a lifetime of designing audio amplifiers for the upper echelon of high end audiophiles. I personally respect anything he says and does in the audio field above anyone else that I know or have heard of.  

 

John I do not think you are going to make many converts to your way of thinking of this forum. This is a horn speaker forum for horn lovers. Unless you just want disagreements which can get really nasty I would just let this discussion die itself out. 

 

Off the subject but I fixed my HP distortion analyzer we had a discussion about months back but prefer the spectrum analyzer software programs such as Arta over it for equal analysis. I do use the HP to verify the results of Arta and the results are close enough for my use. Arta is easier to use also showing the amount of 2nd and 3rd harmonics which the HP does not unless hooked up to an oscilloscope. 

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1 hour ago, John Warren said:

But sensitivity is the reason why all the trouble with making the folded unit in the first place.  One could further reduce it to be "flatter" I suppose but then what's the point? 

 

The reduction in modulation distortion for a given amplitude and bandwidth is one of the more important benefits of the KHorn and Jubilee versus some well designed direct radiator systems.

 

Roy demonstrated for some of us in the lab listening room (using all Klipsch designed LF systems) a comparison between the Jubilee and single 15 , dual 15s.  and quad 15s LF systems all with the same K402 HF and all in the same corner and properly balanced by him. What was very obvious to me was how the increase in clarity and resolution tracked with the increase in radiation area of the LF Systems with the KPT415 being the closest to the Jub LF.

 

miketn

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20 hours ago, John Warren said:

So why do you get that curve above?  Certainly one explanation is you don't know what your measuring.

 

Maybe so.  I thought I was measuring the REW sweep as processed by my amp, my left K-horn, my room, my calibrated mic, REW with my mic calibration entered, 1/3 octave smoothing imposed, from a position slightly off axis, about 42 inches off the floor, at 13 feet distance.  The only other sound I heard was a very, very soft hiss when the sweep was not being run.  I wonder what I was measuring.

 

As you acknowledge, in the AK 4 & 5 (the plot I ran was of an AK 4) the big peak, (or rather Twin Peaks) has (have) been knocked down, so that gazing at the curve is no longer reminiscent of seeing the ending of The High and the Mighty

 

My main reason for posting was to respond to your statement that for all intents and purposes it is a 90 to 350 Hz mid-bass reproducer.  I'd more likely call it a 32 Hz to crossover (450 Hz in the AK 4) reproducer.   Maybe Khorns like my treated room better than the Klipsch anechoic chamber.  Do you know when the curve you reproduced was run?  It was before the AK 4 because the twin peaks are there, reaching skyward.  Could it have been before Klipsch built their revolving door quasi-anechoic chamber with the artificial corner in it?

 

Sensitivity is a nice byproduct of horn loading, but I thought one of the primary purposes of horn loading was to lower modulation distortion.  After being downplayed in some quarters for a while, it's back!  See the final three paragraphs of this article in Stereophile https://www.stereophile.com/content/red-shift-doppler-distortion-loudspeakers-page-3#omWdye7G676SYg0g.99

☮️

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On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 1:59 AM, garyrc said:

My main reason for posting was to respond to your statement that for all intents and purposes it is a 90 to 350 Hz mid-bass reproducer.  I'd more likely call it a 32 Hz to crossover (450 Hz in the AK 4) reproducer.  

 

The Klipschorn folded unit does not horn load the K33E to 32Hz.  The horn loads the driver over a narrow range of frequencies, i.e. where the peak output is measured in the factory plot, it coincides with the maximum sensitivity and where the radiation resistance is significant.  The impedance indicates the radiation resistance is significant between 90-350Hz .  Below that it's a 15" woofer in a sealed box.

 

My ears tell me the Klipschorn bass unit sounds clearer when it's operating on a band-pass (active) filter and supplemented with a sub.

 

I'll show you what I'm referring to a wee bit later.

 

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Dealing with the resonant peak on the ported box, one could tune lower than the FS (which many target) to extend the bass response and get rid of some of the resonant nasties.  The box will sound more like a sealed box though have benefits between the two.

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On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 4:39 AM, John Warren said:

And what about that statement do you find troll-like?

 

Your observation appears to be based on measurements of a prototype bass horn that did not have improvements that later production units have (opened up "sinus" cavities, etc.). Also the early measurements, before Heyser invented TDS, captured room modes that are clearly present in the graph of the prototype horn in the frequency range you mentioned. You should know better, so I assume you are trolling. 

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On 8/19/2018 at 7:16 AM, John Warren said:

And the cost of that small decrease in cone displacement, which occurs over a very narrow range of frequencies mind you, is an apocalyptically bad frequency response that makes just about everything it attempts to reproduce

sound like the proverbial salami whacking the sofa.  

Could you describe that Khorn bass bin sound in other terms?  I don't quite know what a "proverbial salami" whacking the sofa sounds like.  Heck, I don't know any proverbs about salami at all! 

 

 

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4 hours ago, John Warren said:

 

The Klipschorn folded unit does not horn load the K33E to 32Hz.  The horn loads the driver over a narrow range of frequencies, i.e. where the peak output is measured in the factory plot, it coincides with the maximum sensitivity and where the radiation resistance is significant.  The impedance indicates the radiation resistance is significant between 90-350Hz .  Below that it's a 15" woofer in a sealed box.

 

My ears tell me the Klipschorn bass unit sounds clearer when it's operating on a band-pass (active) filter and supplemented with a sub.

 

I show you what I'm referring to a wee bit later.

 

John,

 

I believe that you might be overlooking the fact that the Khorn bass bin was designed as a corner horn.  If you place that bass bin in an anechoic chamber without corner loading, you get what you have described: a 90-95 Hz cutoff.  However in room corner loading it's quite clear that Mr. Camp is correct-as evidenced by his measurement.  There is an antenna theory analogue to this subject (i.e., back loading of an undersized antenna) if you wish to think only in terms of electromagnetic analogues. I've yet to understand why this remains so mysterious and is forgotten so quickly.  But we're friendly here and this is just audio.  No unkind words are needed if we're all to learn and gain from the dialog.  I value most opinions in this thread--but typically in different subject areas than the current one: acoustics.

 

Additionally, the modulation distortion goes approximately as the inverse of the real part of the throat radiation impedance (but perhaps not linearly).  When you place the Khorn bass bin in a room corner, its low frequency throat radiation resistance significantly increases and extends down to ~40 Hz.  

 

See PWK's articles on the Khorn and the Jubilee bass bin, the latter co-authored by one of the contributors to this thread--Chief Bonehead.  Thanks again to Roy for his contributions on the forum, which I feel are invaluable to learning about this often misunderstood subject area.

 

Chris

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On 8/19/2018 at 7:44 PM, garyrc said:

I must admit, though, I've never whacked my sofa with a salami, so I may try,  just for the sake of science.  Which salami is "proverbial?" 

LOL!  I thought I was the only one who didn't know that proverb!  :lol:

 

Kidding aside I do like to hear what the proverbial "smarter guys than me" have to say.  I learn by listening to all sides then comparing it with what I hear, or have heard.  I don't always understand, but I always strive to understand.

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On 8/22/2018 at 7:18 AM, wdecho said:

The little lady wants speakers neatly hid in a bookcase where they are not noticeable.

Full range speakers with a back loaded horn is a trend now among many audiophiles now as well. 

Excuse my ignorance, what's a "back loaded" horn?  I've seen some large high end stereo speakers with what looks likes an integral side firing sub, is that what you mean?

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33 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

Excuse my ignorance, what's a "back loaded" horn?  I've seen some large high end stereo speakers with what looks likes an integral side firing sub, is that what you mean?

A horn where the rear of the driver is horn loaded.  Normally the front of the driver looks like a direct radiator.

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6 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

A horn where the rear of the driver is horn loaded.  Normally the front of the driver looks like a direct radiator.

This guy?  I've seen those before, I guess I didn't realize "back loaded" was the name.  Thanks for the info!  :emotion-21:

 

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