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SET or PP on full range


joessportster

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Vrd not matching a horn loaded heritage well is... well... very weird... they were almost designed for each other.

I think something must have been horribly wrong if you didn't get satisfaction from a la scala vrd set up.

 

44072666292_e90f76ddb1_k.jpg

 

 

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24 minutes ago, dirtmudd said:

Joe have you tried the altec 604's ?

That is 1 speaker that has eluded me to date, I did have a similar speaker the urei 813b. insanely heavy and terribly bright at times. However it left an imprint on my memory with its impact I still judge every speakers impact by that memory :( 

 

1 hour ago, richieb said:

 

=== appears you’d like to make a stand and stay single ended? Can’t really blame you so if you want your mind blown try a pair Audio Mirror 45 watt single ended monos. You won’t be disappointed but prepare for plenty of heat from a quad of Russian 6c33 bottles. These are the most spacious, full, deep and powerful single ended amps you are likely to find for a somewhat reasonable $$$. Or find a pair of Audio Mirror 20 watt single ended monos running 6as7 tubes. Twenty watts single ended is also something to behold - trust me. I’ve owned all the above. Like I used to tell my customers - my name is Rich and I’m here to help you. 

I like that Rich.  I have in the past had some higher output Set and some insane heat using the Joule Electra Grand Marquis they would raise the temp in the room so much it affected the furnace thermostat, Skin Peelers if you were not careful. I also had the heavens gates. and a pair of Canary 300B that did 50wpc.  I am 2nd guessing myself all over the place.  I will take a look at them

 

How does 1 become content ?  Never been able to figure that out.

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33 minutes ago, Schu said:

Vrd not matching a horn loaded heritage well is... well... very weird... they were almost designed for each other.

I think something must have been horribly wrong if you didn't get satisfaction from a la scala vrd set up.

 

44072666292_e90f76ddb1_k.jpg

 

 

Audio Porn,  You sir are a TEASE :P

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5 minutes ago, joessportster said:

That is 1 speaker that has eluded me to date, I did have a similar speaker the urei 813b. insanely heavy and terribly bright at times. However it left an imprint on my memory with its impact I still judge every speakers impact by that memory :( 

 

I like that Rich.  I have in the past had some higher output Set and some insane heat using the Joule Electra Grand Marquis they would raise the temp in the room so much it affected the furnace thermostat, Skin Peelers if you were not careful. I also had the heavens gates. and a pair of Canary 300B that did 50wpc.  I am 2nd guessing myself all over the place.  I will take a look at them

 

How does 1 become content ?  Never been able to figure that out.

 

=== become content? Change hobbies and discontent will happen there too —. I look at as experimentation rather than being content. 

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16 minutes ago, richieb said:

 

=== become content? Change hobbies and discontent will happen there too —. I look at as experimentation rather than being content. 

Content would help me I am somewhat OCD (somewhat may be an understatement according to my wife :) ) I  get moody when I can not do the things I want, contentment would be a plus. 

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Guest wdecho

I do not want to say anything negative about your choice of a 15" full range driver but it would not be my choice being that a 15" speaker will become directional above 1200kz. I know the brand you bought and have read what the seller has said about bigger being better but I did not buy into that statement. Like you I wanted to try a full range speaker and decided on a 6 1/2" full range driver but wish now that it had been a 4 1/2" one. I am using mine in an open baffle with my LaScala bass bin for the lows. I can quickly change some connections and compare the sound to my LaScala's anytime I choose. I have a friend that I A/B'ed the two sounds this week and he preferred the conventional full range speaker. One of my son's after A/B'ed the two commented that the horns sound so much cleaner and clearer. I agree with my son, not that the full range does sound good but not to my taste. One thing that I am sure of is with the horns there is more detail in the music after doing many comparisons. My full range driver is considered really a good choice for it's cost, Fostex FE166En with an efficiency of 94db. I have enjoyed hearing what all the fuss is about full range drivers but now I know it is not my cup of tea vs horns. 

 

But getting back to having more power. I do not have any problem using my many SET's with the Fostex. Much the same as with the horns other than the differences mentioned above but then the full range speaker is really efficient at 94db. But also I am using my LaScala bass bin below 500 hz. There is a different sound between a PP vs a SE amp whether SS or tube. My SET's have no problem driving the 15" speaker in the LaScala bass bins. I agree a PP amplifier with more power will have a better bottom end but at the cost of the sweet, lovely mid-range and vocals among other things. I only have one PP tube amplifier and the sound to me is much like a class A PP SS amplifier which I have 5 of at the present time. I also have 2 SE class A SS amplifiers which I prefer over the sound of the PP SS ones. Just as with tubes the bottom end of the PP amplifiers is better than the SE class A SS amplifiers. I see no reason to change output tubes every year or so using a 35 watt tube PP amplifier. 

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3 hours ago, wdecho said:

I do not want to say anything negative about your choice of a 15" full range driver but it would not be my choice being that a 15" speaker will become directional above 1200kz. I know the brand you bought and have read what the seller has said about bigger being better but I did not buy into that statement. Like you I wanted to try a full range speaker and decided on a 6 1/2" full range driver but wish now that it had been a 4 1/2" one. I am using mine in an open baffle with my LaScala bass bin for the lows. I can quickly change some connections and compare the sound to my LaScala's anytime I choose. I have a friend that I A/B'ed the two sounds this week and he preferred the conventional full range speaker. One of my son's after A/B'ed the two commented that the horns sound so much cleaner and clearer. I agree with my son, not that the full range does sound good but not to my taste. One thing that I am sure of is with the horns there is more detail in the music after doing many comparisons. My full range driver is considered really a good choice for it's cost, Fostex FE166En with an efficiency of 94db. I have enjoyed hearing what all the fuss is about full range drivers but now I know it is not my cup of tea vs horns. 

 

But getting back to having more power. I do not have any problem using my many SET's with the Fostex. Much the same as with the horns other than the differences mentioned above but then the full range speaker is really efficient at 94db. But also I am using my LaScala bass bin below 500 hz. There is a different sound between a PP vs a SE amp whether SS or tube. My SET's have no problem driving the 15" speaker in the LaScala bass bins. I agree a PP amplifier with more power will have a better bottom end but at the cost of the sweet, lovely mid-range and vocals among other things. I only have one PP tube amplifier and the sound to me is much like a class A PP SS amplifier which I have 5 of at the present time. I also have 2 SE class A SS amplifiers which I prefer over the sound of the PP SS ones. Just as with tubes the bottom end of the PP amplifiers is better than the SE class A SS amplifiers. I see no reason to change output tubes every year or so using a 35 watt tube PP amplifier. 

Thanks for the input. David does do a lot of Bragging on site which was off putting to me. At the time I bought his 15" drivers I have in house a 3" single driver and a 6.5" single driver I enjoyed the 2 smaller drivers quite a bit but at the end of the day they offered very little in the Lower registers and when the urge to turn up the volume came the 3" would distort rather quickly and the 6.5" would get shrill in certain Freq.  I was looking for a speaker that could actually perform a full spectrum of sound without the need to bi / tri-amp.

 

While the 15" is not perfect (No speaker is IMHO) It is the closest I have heard in terms of coherence, imaging, realism. It offers a huge sound stage deep and wide and does pretty good at height.  All that said Memory reminds me that a good horn can also offer all the above with better presence, immediacy. But that same horn requires a separate bottom end. Also the  time & effort to integrate them seamlessly. There are of course options for a full range 2 or 3 way horn loaded speaker (Klipsch) but for the most part my room is to small for those to breathe and they can become quite shrill at volume in a live smallish room. 

 

With regards to Power it has been my position for years that SET simply sounds better (Thats why I have 3 different  versions Currently) While the SET does offer a more palpable mid range, & High End there is something to be said for the low mid and the low, They offer the foundation upon which the mids and highs reside. My listening has become mainly within the SET amps strengths, Acoustic, Folk, Singer Songwriter, Bluegrass etc... It is that other 10 percent of the time when my listening habits stray that I desire more foundation. I am to the point where I think I need 2 different amps hooked up 1 PP and 1 SET And only power the 1 that suits the current desires

 

Joe

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Guest wdecho

Joe the full range optimal speaker setup is usually using the Eminnence Alpha 15 speaker for the bottom end. This is in an open baffles setup. The plywood frame to hold both speakers is pretty large to keep the back waves of the Alfa from cancelling the front waves. Also there has to wings on the sides of the Alpha for the same reason. This is something you may want to play with,  https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/full-range-speaker-kits/fostex-bk-16-folded-horn-kit-pair/   I have considered building this myself but have not pulled the trigger yet. Supposedly sounds really good with a good bottom end. Similar to the Abby speakers page 15.   

http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_cs_amps.pdf

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My preference is to use SE amps (EL84 SEP, 2A3 SET, 300B SET AND 845 SET) on my modified Belles (Community BRH90 horn in place of the stock mid-horn), on my Lowther PM2A/Medallion speakers and on the JBL 4430 and 4425.

 

There will be compromises with any amp type. SE amps, especially with the fullrange Lowthers, have an uncanny ability to connect me to the music.

 

I'm not familiar with the 15" fullrange drivers you are using and am unable to comment on them. Hopefully you will have an opportunity to audition some different amps, SE and PP, on your speakers before you settle on "the one".

 

YMMV. :)

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3 hours ago, Schu said:

Vrd not matching a horn loaded heritage well is... well... very weird... they were almost designed for each other.

I think something must have been horribly wrong if you didn't get satisfaction from a la scala vrd set up.

 

+1

Wow!  Where's the love for VRD's?  That is just strange... It's all about the synergy of parts, I know, but La Scala's and VRD's are incredible together.  Something was definitely wrong.  

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^ I think I get it... it's a a personal choice and not everyone desires the same thing.

The SET's I've had have been very sweet indeed, but I've always felt more fulfilled by a deep/strong lower register. Perhaps that came out wrong... I've always felt something was missing when listening to a SET.

It's probably a combination of the choice in music I listen to and a need to feel the low frequencies that pushed me to where I am now.

I personally don't get caught up in output numbers... whether it's 4 watts or 40 watts, I really don't care "that much" because I am right around 85db for the most part.

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On 8/19/2018 at 4:16 PM, joessportster said:

Yes we certainly have, If I had a pair of Oris horns I would certainly be driving those with the Cary 45, Unfortunately Oris are pretty hard to come by now days and always seem to be on the other side of the country when they do pop up. I am always on the look out for a pair I will admit

 

I have everything I would need to put a pair together a bi amp / tri amp setup except the 8" driver which is not a big issue with the many choices out there today

 

I am really on the fence with this. I want to keep the Cary 45's they are outstanding amps, my single drivers are approx 97db efficient and the cary will get my main listening source preferences to a decent level (85-90 db at listening pos.) but when I run into those few recordings that are recorded at a low level the amps simply can not put them at a reasonable level. 

 

The DRD 300B's do better but If I am going too get away from the 45 out of necessity  the 300B is sort of like a compromise half way between the PP and the 45, (I am not much for compromise unfortunately,  I will always be trying to swing for the fences in 1 direction or the other.

 

 

You can get a New pair of Oris Horns direct from the Manufacturer in the Netherlands..... That's where I bought mine.

 

I don't understand why you can't Bi-amp now.... What would you do with an 8" driver? ?????

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26 minutes ago, Cut-Throat said:

 

 

You can get a New pair of Oris Horns direct from the Manufacturer in the Netherlands..... That's where I bought mine.

 

I don't understand why you can't Bi-amp now.... What would you do with an 8" driver? ?????

I have spoke with Bert price with shipping is right at 1200.00 plus any import Duty / Tax, (not sure on the latter)

 

I can and have Bi-amp My fostex BK16 using the fostex 6.5 drivers and while they sound decent they are lacking when compared to the 15"  

 

The 8" driver would be needed if I were to get an oris horn

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Yes I have the Classic Alnico 15" AN drivers in a 5.6 Cubic Foot Bass Reflex Cabinet. I just swapped out my Dac to Wavelength Cosecant which is said to be Higher Output. Now I am finding the SET amps are doing much better. The speakers in Cabinet are right at 97 DB Effecient (according to David Dicks at AN / Common Sense)  I agree the drivers are not cheap

 

Bruce I have looked at Frugal in the past though not recently so maybe a new look is in order.

 

The Single drivers were my effort to escape the constant upgrade that always seems to go with building a 2 way system.

 

I am in SLOW DOWN mode right now Gotta take care of some bills etc... B-4 doing anything else

 

I really want the Cary 45 to work out and over the last 30 minutes with the new (to me) Dac in the chain the cary is doing over 90DB at not quite full volume on the Truth Pre.  I will have to go through some of my reference stuff and see how they do after a couple hours warm up  Heres hoping (fingers crossed) they will work out

 

Just 1 more example of synergy between parts of the system. 

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