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How much difference would an amp make?


SteveL

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My current speaker setup consists of:

 

RF-82 mains

RC-64 center

RS-62 surrounds (1 pair)

CDT-5800-C II Atmos (1 pair)

 

I don't have any surround backs as my living room won't really accommodate them. In my current house I seriously doubt I'll ever add any more speakers. I could get away with adding front height channels, but realistically I probably won't.

 

I also have two subwoofers from Power Sound Audio, a 15V and XV15se.

 

I've been using a Pioneer Elite SC-95 AV receiver to drive them for the past couple of years. I recently ordered a Marantz SR6012 to replace it since everyone has been marking them way down. On paper it's a small step down in power, but everything I've read says Audyssey XT32 used in the Marantz is better than MCACC used by Pioneer. The only other thing I really gain will be Dolby Vision pass-through.

 

Anyway I've toyed with the idea of adding a three channel amp for my front stage and would continue running my surrounds and Atmos speakers with the receiver. If I were to go this route, would I see any worthwhile improvement in sound? 

 

I use my system for 99% movies and TV and only listen to music occasionally.

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Very little difference, if any, unless your play your movies very, very loudly, get a separate power amp with at least double the power in watts (3 dB), and stop using the subwoofers (which have their own power).  None of the above?  Stick with the Marantz, a good unit, especially since your speakers are efficient.

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26 minutes ago, garyrc said:

Very little difference, if any, unless your play your movies very, very loudly, get a separate power amp with at least double the power in watts (3 dB), and stop using the subwoofers (which have their own power).  None of the above?  Stick with the Marantz, a good unit, especially since your speakers are efficient.

 

I do like to crank my movies sometimes, but I've never ran into an issue where I felt like I didn't have enough power. Thanks for responding.

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2 hours ago, SteveL said:

Anyway I've toyed with the idea of adding a three channel amp for my front stage and would continue running my surrounds and Atmos speakers with the receiver. If I were to go this route, would I see any worthwhile improvement in sound? 

Can't say for sure that you will but I sure did.  All across the board.  My room(6100ft3+) is on the large side of medium, so when I added my first amp, a B&K Reference 4430(200w/channel X 3) to my Onkyo TX-SR705, the improvements were remarkable.  Ten years later and still amping but with Acurus for the last 7 years.

 

Bill

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3 minutes ago, willland said:

Can't say for sure that you will but I sure did.  All across the board.  My room(6100ft3+) is on the large side of medium, so when I added my first amp, a B&K Reference 4430(200w/channel X 3) to my Onkyo TX-SR705, the improvements were remarkable.  Ten years later and still amping but with Acurus for the last 7 years.

 

Bill

Interesting. My space is a little on the large side also because my living room is completely open to the kitchen. A bar separates the two rooms. I don't care about sound quality in the kitchen, but I know the larger connected space can make a difference.

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More power is almost always good to a point taxing your receiver to the max pushes distortion levels up and risks damaging speakers plus the built in amp in most receivers just don't have the ability to control the woofers as well as even a lower powered but well built separate amplifier. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, garyrc said:

Very little difference, if any, unless your play your movies very, very loudly, get a separate power amp with at least double the power in watts (3 dB), and stop using the subwoofers (which have their own power).  None of the above?  Stick with the Marantz, a good unit, especially since your speakers are efficient.

+1 to that....the money is best spent else where.

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1 hour ago, oldred said:
2 hours ago, garyrc said:

Very little difference, if any, unless your play your movies very, very loudly, get a separate power amp with at least double the power in watts (3 dB), and stop using the subwoofers (which have their own power).  None of the above?  Stick with the Marantz, a good unit, especially since your speakers are efficient.

+1 to that....the money is best spent else where.

I'm in these guys camp. :) A good thing to do is get and SPL meter or App and see how loud you listen to your favorite material. Fwiw, I have listened to multichannel music pretty much every night for almost 2 decades and have heard no distortion at the levels (80 to 85 dB/ which is about -16 to -18 dB on the Denon's main volume on most SACD/DVD-As. Concert videos are usually -12 to -18 and movies we watch between -4 to about -10 lately.  On that note, we have also used the Denon AVR-4802R and AVR-4806 prior to the Denon AVR-4311ci which we have been using for the last 4+ years....Use the extra money to buy source material or spend on another hobby. 

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Even though that Pioneer seems like it is fairly capable the extra headroom an external amp can give you helps with control of your speaker's drivers. You would more than likely notice better detail even at low volumes. Minimum 200 wpc for an amp though or it might end up a wash for you.

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To start off.....why not play around with your Audyssey settings....Most just calibrate and just leave it......play around with it and get the most out of it. Spend some time ...learn how to use it. Then ....if you are still not happy .......Spend the money

I've been an audio guy since I was 5...Its not about the watts...it's about the setup...power is always nice....but it's not always the answer.

 

 

 

George

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54 minutes ago, oldred said:

I've been an audio guy since I was 5...Its not about the watts...it's about the setup...power is always nice....but it's not always the answer.

Once enough current  is provided to drive the speakers efficiently at the volume desired then the rest won't do any good.  Yes. as others have mentioned you want to have enough headroom. The OP's speakers are at least 92 dB/1meter so his AVR should drive that system without an external amp if he is sending everything below 80 Hz to capable subs 9Note: I am not familiar with his). That's my 2 cents. :) 

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36 minutes ago, oldred said:

I've been an audio guy since I was 5.

 

Wow.  You have me beat.  I've been one since I was about 12, much too long ago to report.

 

36 minutes ago, oldred said:

To start off.....why not play around with your Audyssey settings....Most just calibrate and just leave it......play around with it and get the most out of it. Spend some time ...learn how to use it. Then ....if you are still not happy .......Spend the money ...

Its not about the watts...it's about the setup...power is always nice....but it's not always the answer.

 

Yes!  Take your time setting up Audyssey.  It takes most people 2 to 5 tries.  If your are going to treat the room, do so before running Audyssey.  It works well for many people, and not for others.  It worked beautifully for me!

 

This should be required reading for anyone using Audyssey "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"-- the receiver manuals are usually FUBAR.

 

I think your front speakers have a sensitivity of 98 db, 2.83v, 1m ... is that correct?   If so, you can get the industry reference level for movies (105 db), at 13 feet away, in a 3,000 cu.ft. room with less than 35 watts. 

 

It is true that some amps have sonic qualities that others don't.  Some can deal with goofy impedance better than others.  Etc., etc. ...  Separate amps have a much better rep than receivers.  For one thing, manufacturers tend to be more honest in rating separate power amps.

 

I'm not familiar with your subs.  Are they good?  Can you afford better?  That might be a place to spend money.  Two high quality, identical subs are best.  Of course if you are rolling in cash, let us know, and we'll come up with lots of ways to spend it.

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2 minutes ago, garyrc said:
55 minutes ago, oldred said:

I've been an audio guy since I was 5.

 

Wow.  You have me beat.  I've been one since I was about 12, much too long ago to report.

I'm a noob--I didn't really get into it until Surround Sound was invented and then not really appreciating it until 5.1 digital. 😎

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Thanks everyone for responding. I figured I would get a lot of responses from both sides of the aisle.

 

As far as Audyssey goes, I've been reading up on it a bit so far and I plan to spend the $20 and get the Audyssey app because I know it allows me to make quite a few more adjustments than just running the auto setup in the Marantz. Based on what I've read at this point those adjustments can make a pretty significant difference.

 

With regard to my subs, yes they're quite good. Power Sound Audio (PSA) is an internet direct company. Both of my subs are ported 15" down firing models. The 15V (725 watts RMS) is essentially a newer model of the XV15se (550 watts RMS). You can read a couple of brief reviews of the XV15 here:

 

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/xv-15-subwoofer

https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=88

 

Note that the XV15se is a bit of an upgrade over the XV15 with a slightly more powerful amp, and then the 15V is basically an updated model of that.

 

Unfortunately I am NOT rolling in cash. If that were the case I would have already bought an amp to test out. It's unfortunate that the only way to try one out in your HT is to buy it and see if you like it. 

Edited by SteveL
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@Zen Traveler

 

I enjoy your posts.

 

I looked at some of your thread on AVS concerning sensitvity ratings.   Klipsch claims their ratings are for the speakers positioned as specified in the instructions in an "average" listening room.  They say that adds about 4 dB to the anechoic sensitivity.  To convert to AES  sensitivity, subtract 4 dB.  I'm guessing that varies somewhat with the design of the speaker.  K-horns are measured in 1/8 space because that's the way they have to be played, because the room corner is part of the design.  A couple of reviewers about a decade ago measured their sensitivity without them being in a corner, but out in the room, and they both got 98 dB, 2.83v, 1M.  It's conceivable that they would measure 104 or 105 dB in Klipsch's special revolving corner quasi-anechoic chamber.

image.png.026a2bd6c6b38a752813498266f8259b.png

 

I believe Roy wrote that they measure SPL at 2.83v input over the advertised bandwidth of the speaker

 

6 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

I'm a noob--I didn't really get into it until Surround Sound was invented

 

The first time great numbers of people experienced Surround Sound was in 1940 when Walt Disney's Fantasia played in a number of specially equipped theaters.  According to an article by Peck in Scientific American, January 1941, "What Makes Fantasia Click," in the New York theater there were a total of 90 speakers scattered around the theater, on the main floor, in the orchestra pit, and in the balcony.  Of the 90, 36 were behind, and to either side of the screen, and the remaining 54 throughout the theater.  The sound tracks (optical, but the highest quality available at the time, "Silver") numbered only 4, but via a number of contrivances, automatic and manual, could be directed to any combination of speakers.  The sound could be made to "creep up the aisle" as in the procession of choristers in the final musical selection, Ave Maria.  The sound could achieve an SPL of 100 dB, the highest heard in a movie theater up to that time.

 

 

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9 hours ago, oldred said:

+1 to that....the money is best spent else where.

Just want to point out that good quality amplification can be a very cost effective way to improve performance.  A well built amp can last for a decade or two or three without degradation and can be very inexpensive on the used market.

 

I have owned just shy of 30 outboard amps since 2007 and never paid more than $500.00 and the failure rate of these amps has been less than 3%.

 

Bill

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