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How much difference would an amp make?


SteveL

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Like I said before more power is great and there's a reason separates cost quite a bit more than standard receivers when bought new but all that being said I do agree with some of the people on the "other side of the aisle" because each specific situation is unique it is hard to gauge over the computer with limited information on what step you should take next to maximize return. 

 

What is it specifically that you are trying to gain; Higher volume? More bass? Better detail or clarity? 

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All things being equal, a good stand alone amplifier + preamp is always going to be better than a 5.1 receiver.

 

Think of it this way. You take 5 channels of amplification, a preamplifier, a processer, and maybe a tuner and shove it all in one box that weighs less than a good two channel 100 watt amplifier. How good can that scenario possibly be?

 

And not sure if someone mentioned it in this thread yet, but most multi channel receivers publish power ratings with ONE channel at a time playing. How often will that be happening?

 

Shakey

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2 hours ago, willland said:

Just want to point out that good quality amplification can be a very cost effective way to improve performance.  A well built amp can last for a decade or two or three without degradation and can be very inexpensive on the used market.

 

I have owned just shy of 30 outboard amps since 2007 and never paid more than $500.00 and the failure rate of these amps has been less than 3%.

 

Bill

You do seem to purchase a lot of gear. 😎 I've  only had  3 AVRs since 2003 and will once again upgrade when my Denon AVR-4311ci bites the dust--At that time, I will incorporate another pair of Klipsch speakers that I have layin' around of Atmos duty.  That said, along with that amplification you need processing and the newer codex and EQ programs are definitely more than what we used to call "bells and whistles," unless you only listen to 2 channel.....I also am a fan of purchasing quality AVRs right when they become discontinued.

 

Insofar as external amps and separate processing is concerned, nothing wrong with going that route if you have the funds, like the aesthetics, and/or have a large room to fill at loud SPL. 

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35 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

Think of it this way. You take 5 channels of amplification, a preamplifier, a processer, and maybe a tuner and shove it all in one box that weighs less than a good two channel 100 watt amplifier. How good can that scenario possibly be?

 

Weight used to be a good determinant to quality in the old days but with leaps made in the processing and connecting technology there are dimensioning diminishing returns insofar as bang-for-your-buck is concerned...The other side of that argument is that once you provide enough current for your speakers to run at the volume you want then providing more will do nothing.

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18 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

Weight used to be a good determinant to quality in the old days but with leaps made in the processing and connecting technology there are dimensioning diminishing returns insofar as bang-for-your-buck is concerned...The other side of that argument is that once you provide enough current for your speakers to run at the volume you want then providing more will do nothing.

 

Well my argument against receivers is that they suck the life out of a system. I pay little attention to power ratings, distortion levels, and all that BS. But I do care about good sound, and it ain't coming from a receiver.

 

Now if all you want to do is reproduce car chases, helicopters, explosions, dinosaur stomps,etc......, knock yourself out with a receiver.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

Well my argument against receivers is that they suck the life out of a system

Gotta admit, if this is where you are starting from I'm sure there is nothing I could post (or have posted) that would change your mind. :) Enjoy your system.

 

Fwiw,  I listen mostly tp multichannel DVD-A/SACD and concert videos and  this material sounds sublime on the HT listed below. And you are correct about how  a good AVR (and subs) add to movies. To others and the OP, I have nothing really more to add to this thread except to say actually figure out how loud you listen to material and use that as a benchmark where you want to go. 

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There are other threads on the topic but here is one I started several years ago: 

EDIT: Here is another one dealing with folks posting their Audyssey settings. I started this and the other thread to see how loud each of us listen to material on our own system and this could give us a starting place to a universal discussion on what we expect in a Home Theater System. 

 

Edited by Zen Traveler
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3 minutes ago, willland said:

Actually I have not bought any new(to me) gear in the last 4 years with the Oppo 105 being the exception and that was 1.5 years ago.:P

 

Bill

Sorry another exception, my Yamaha CD-S1000 player.

 

Bill

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8 minutes ago, willland said:

Actually I have not bought any new(to me) gear in the last 4 years with the Oppo 105 being the exception and that was 1.5 years ago.:P

 

Bill

I gotcha. That is why I said after 2003. Prior to that I was spending money like it was going outta style ( 4 AVRs in 4 years). LOL.

We have 3 AVRS,  way to numerous disk players, and almost a dozen speakers I'm not using. My last purchase was a Sony UPB X-800 and I liked it so much we bought two. {Note: we have a 5.1 HT at work). 

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18 hours ago, SteveL said:

I recently ordered a Marantz SR6012 to replace it since everyone has been marking them way down. On paper it's a small step down in power, but everything I've read says Audyssey XT32 used in the Marantz is better than MCACC used by Pioneer.

 

First of all I agree with others about adding an external amp.  It can add some headroom but probably not worth it, especially with the 6012 on the way, good choice.  The improvement would be subtle and not noticed most of the time.

 

I have the 6011 and when you run the ECO mode a little crude looking power meter pops up on the screen to show you how much power you are saving or to put it the other way, how much power you are using.  When I run my most demanding Bluray music disc running ear bleed levels continuously I can't make the power usage meter go past 1/3.

 

An external amp can help but it's more of a "want" than a "need."

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all things being equal... adding seps have advantages that are audible.

 

they wont cure issues you are having with other aspects of your listening experience, but adding headroom, reducing cross talk and improving dynamics have advantages.

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

First of all I agree with others about adding an external amp.  It can add some headroom but probably not worth it, especially with the 6012 on the way

Like I said earlier, cheap real power in a quality used outboard amp.

 

42 minutes ago, Schu said:

but adding headroom, reducing cross talk and improving dynamics have advantages.

Especially in a large room like the OP has.

 

Bill

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Many thanks to everyone who has replied so far. I appreciate everyone's input. As of right now I'm not trying gain anything specific as I don't find my current system lacking. However, I also know that just because it's good doesn't mean it can't be better. The problem is I have no experience with separate amps so I have no idea what to expect from one. Some say I won't be able to tell the difference while others are citing specific qualities that would/could/should be improved. A separate amp is not something I was planning to add right away. It's just always been an idea in the back of my head as a potential purchase down the road, not as a necessity bur rather a "what if...?" type of thing. 

 

As it stands right now I should have the new receiver tomorrow (they attempted delivery today but nobody was here to sign for it). I'm sure I'll spend the better part of the day setting it up and playing with Audyssey. I'm really looking forward to it testing it out.

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12 hours ago, willland said:

A well built amp can last for a decade or two or three without degradation

 

I have a Dyna pre-amp that has lasted about 40 years, including a 21 year period of hard use at SFSU, preceded by about 12 years of hard use at home.  It is in the garage now, but gets moved into the music room to be used whenever my newer equipment is in the shop. 

 

I agree with you that the OP, and anyone else, would be well advised to use very good electronics ... I'm still pining away for my old Luxman, which sounded very warm ... but when someone has electronics that are "good enough" and is on a limited budget, it's a good idea to look at each piece of equipment, and see what most needs attention, IMO.  Fortunately, it looks like the audio the OP has is in good shape now.  If he wants to add separate power amplification, I think he should do it for beautiful sound quality, rather than power alone, since he only needs about 35 watts per channel.  Some dealers will allow people to take an amp home when they are closed, to evaluate the sound in their own room.

 

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22 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

I almost overlooked this. Thanks for the link.

 

ETA: That thread was a very good discussion and pretty well answers my questions. You stated the concerns and questions there much better than I have done here. Thanks again.

 

By the way I thought your user name sounded familiar. I used to be quite a bit more active on AVS.

Edited by SteveL
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I use a Marantz AVR as the heart of my system. I don’t listen at crazy loud levels. I did incorporate a pair of Marantz monoblocks but to tell you the truth the difference in sound is not discernible to me at all. Glad I bought them though as I will use them eventually in a separate music only system in my den down the road. As was mentioned earlier, want vs need.

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1 hour ago, YK Thom said:

I use a Marantz AVR as the heart of my system. I don’t listen at crazy loud levels. I did incorporate a pair of Marantz monoblocks but to tell you the truth the difference in sound is not discernible to me at all. Glad I bought them though as I will use them eventually in a separate music only system in my den down the road. As was mentioned earlier, want vs need.

My Marantz SR7012 sounds great quiet or loud.  For music or movies.  Paired with Forte III.  I keep deliberating adding a 300-500 watt amp but just don't feel like I'll notice a huge difference.  I had a McIntosh MC275 VI that I had to remove due to placement limitations and only noticed a slight loss in the low end but nothing earth shattering...

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My Marantz arrived today and I got it hooked up and ran through the Audyssey setup and did a little tweaking but nothing in depth yet. So far I'm am very impressed. It sounds MUCH better than the Pioneer did. I thought about getting a Marantz several years ago when I ended up with the Pioneer. That was clearly the wrong decision. Based only on the little bit of playing and testing I've done so far, I don't think I'll be needing that amp any time soon.

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