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Can a mismatched new center Klipsch work?


NotOnSugarMountain

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Rerun Yamaha's YPAO whenever you make any change.

 

Then, try simply turning up your center by about 3 dB.

 

An 80 Hz crossover isn't a "brick wall."  The center still produces audible bass down about an octave, or more. 

 

The male voice doesn't bottom out at 100 Hz.  I know some sites say that.  Some basso profundos can go down to about 40Hz.   I'd like to know how low Sam Elliot's speaking voice goes.  It sounds to me like there are soft undertones way, way down.

 

When a speaker is asked to reproduce a bass frequency it can't reach, it may cause distortion higher up.

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On 8/30/2018 at 10:44 PM, wvu80 said:

I agree with this.  Get the best center you can afford.  "Timbre matching" is way overrated.  Accurate dialog is accurate, matching to inaccurate L/R does not help and it does not make the center somehow "muddy."

 

Ninety percent of TV/movies is dialog and 90% of dialog comes out of the center.  Dialog does not come out of the L/R and there are no movies I've ever heard of where someone is doing a monologue for five minutes walking back and forth across the screen while the sound follows him.  It's not the scenario you have to worry about when running "mis-matched" speakers.

 

My biggest concern about your post is you seem to want to go small on the Klipsch center.  I have preference for center speakers with 6" to 7" woofers in the MTM style, or MMTMM of something substantial like the RC-64.  The RC-64 has a 1.75" compression driver for the HF/mids, which is where the magic happens IMO.  The RP-504 and RP-404 both have 1" compression drivers.

 

I would suggest the RC-64 III, then the RP-504C, then the RP-404C. 

 

Disclaimer:  I own the RC-64 I, I've heard the RC-64 II, and I have not heard the RP-x lines.  I would also point out that "timbre matching" is the majority opinion.  Mine is the minority opinion based on my experience.  Finding the best QUALITY center speaker is what makes the difference for clear dialog.

 

Don't take my word for it.  Listen to all sides and decide for yourself what is best for your audio setup.

BS!  Timbre matching is extremely important if you think it isn't you must be tone deaf or just plain ignorant of the facts of system synergy.  It never ceases to amaze me when people recommend non timbre' matched centers merely because they are willing to compromise their system.  Some dialogue does indeed come from L/R as well it is just toned down don't you ever get up and listen to your mains?

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7 hours ago, oldtimer said:

Here's a counter to ponder.  Go into any movie theater with a good sound system.  Are the speakers timbre matched, or not?  The answer is obvious.  An optimal system uses the optimal solution.

My local theater is not a good example, the sound is terrible but I get your point. 

 

In an orchestra do the trumpets need to be "timbre matched" to the French horns?  Of course not, a French horn and a trumpet is the definition of "NOT timbre matched" but they sound good together because of using skilled musicians playing on high quality instruments that can play in tune, not sharp or flat on a given note or chord.  If a vocalist is used she needs to be as clear as possible, not "timbre matched" to the horn section.  They produce different timbres by design.

 

QUALITY sound is what sounds good, not "timbre matched."

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5 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

My local theater is not a good example, the sound is terrible but I get your point. 

 

In an orchestra do the trumpets need to be "timbre matched" to the French horns?  Of course not, a French horn and a trumpet is the definition of "NOT timbre matched" but they sound good together because of using skilled musicians playing on high quality instruments that can play in tune, not sharp or flat on a given note or chord.  If a vocalist is used she needs to be as clear as possible, not "timbre matched" to the horn section.  They produce different timbres by design.

 

QUALITY sound is what sounds good, not "timbre matched."

Your still not getting it though, your speakers need to be able to reproduce those individual instruments and voices the same and if the timbre' is not matched they aren't going to reproduced in the same way.

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1 minute ago, Frzninvt said:

BS!  Timbre matching is extremely important if you think it isn't you must be tone deaf or just plain ignorant of the facts of system synergy.  It never ceases to amaze me when people recommend non timbre' matched centers merely because they are willing to compromise their system.  Some dialogue does indeed come from L/R as well it is just toned down don't you ever get up and listen to your mains?

(our posts just passed each other by seconds)

 

It is not BS.  Maybe we both don't have the same idea of what "timbre" is.   I'm guessing my perspective is very different from yours, but my idea and examples of what timbre match IS is very specific.  I am very clear on the concept.  I can't go into it now, I have racquetball in 20 minutes. 

 

I'm pretty sure I'm not tone deaf and certainly not ignorant.  I have a very critical ear for music and I listen for pitch, balance and blend which I think what you are referring to as "synergy."  There are others more knowledgeable than I but I've been playing music and listening to music for more than a half-century.  My reference is live! music, not amplified.

 

My background is in music and I have listened to a LOT of musical instruments from the perspective of being on the stage, very close to the original sound.  I can hear the difference between two trumpet players playing different notes, or a French horn and a trumpet playing the same note.  I can tell you the difference in sound between a field snare and a concert snare.  THE DIFFERENCES in sound between the two IS TIMBRE.  Otherwise they would sound the same.

 

And yes, I do listen very carefully to my speakers.  During some passages I walk up and listen to the L/R, the center, woofers, tweeters to actually hear what sound is coming from where.  In my three way speakers like Khorns most sound came from the mid horn.  On my RF-83's they use a very tiny horn for the HF and surprisingly little sound comes out of the tweeter (same on the Khorn, it's just high pitched squeaks to my ears, not full sounds)  Most of the sound comes out of the woofers.  In my RF-64 more sound comes out of the tweeter horn.  I assure you even the the RF-83 and RC-64 are "matched" to each other by Klipsch but they produce very different sound from different parts of the speaker drivers.

 

I'm crystal clear on what timbre is and why it is important.  I'm also clear on what good sound reproducers sound like.  I know it when I hear it.  I am firmly in the camp of accurate reproduction, not the arbitrary term "timbre matched."

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I haven't listened to the speakers you mentioned, but I added an RC-64 III as a center channel between a pair of Thiel CS 2.3s, and it improved the clarity of dialogue, locked dialogue and certain other effects to the screen, and added impact action sequences (four more 6.5" drivers). It's certainly not timber matched to the Thiels as evidenced by the different presentation of the white-noise signal used for setting levels, but the difference hasn't sounded problematic while watching movies.

 

That said, the Thiels are getting swapped out for Forte IIIs when funds permit. My listening tastes have changed, and the Fortes seem better suited to present ones.

Edited by Stubb
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2 hours ago, Stubb said:

I haven't listened to the speakers you mentioned, but I added an RC-64 III as a center channel between a pair of Thiel CS 2.3s, and it improved the clarity of dialogue, (respectful snip!, I just wanted to reference your post)

 

That is a very good example of my experience as well.  I think you articulated it better than I did.

+++

 

Since I'm no good with words in describing concepts like "timbre matching" let's let the music do the talking.

 

In this next section you will hear one of the finest brass ensembles in the world.  They will play a chord then cut leaving only the tubas playing.  Play next section, cut, only the baritones are exposed.  Then mellophones, then finally trumpets.

 

When you hear the exposed sections playing a single unison note, THAT is timbre matching.  Each musician is using the same brand of trumpet (etc) and playing the same note, exactly in tune.  Can you tell me how many tubas you hear?  You will only hear one note as if one tuba were playing.  How many mellos?  How many trumpets?

 

If you CAN'T tell there are 16 tubas, or 14 mellos, 28 baritones or 32 trumpets then you are hearing EXACTLY what I hear, which is perfect timbre matching.  If you CAN hear each brass section on a chord the bass, bari, mello and trumpet lines, THAT is timbre difference.

 

This is the high brass winner in the 2018 Drum Corps International World Championships, Carolina Crown.  Play this loud and you will know what I mean by judging music with the criteria pitch, balance, blend.

 

 

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You hit the nail on the head.  Your concept of timbre matching is not the concept as applied to loudspeakers.  And yes, I also have played a lot of music of all types in my day, and have the university degree to prove it.  This has been one of the better threads around lately.

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7 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

And yes, I also have played a lot of music of all types in my day, and have the university degree to prove it.

What was your instrument?

 

I hung out with a lot of band musicians and know the sounds of most brass wind instruments.  I don't have a good ear for strings.

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Percussion, my good man.  To elaborate on optimal solutions, differently voiced speakers reproduce sound with differing coloration.  This is what the timbre matching crowd is pointing out.  In layman's terms, differently voiced speakers are like listening to sound with 2 sets of ears, or perhaps one set but one ear hears one way, and the other perceives sound in a different way for some reason.  LOL, it's early for me, I hope that makes sense.  Like I said earlier, theaters with "good" or "excellent" sound are cohesive systems that are indeed comprised of timbre matched speakers.  This has been shown to provide the best possible sound experience.

Using Paul's derived third channel which was meant for older recording techniques does not apply to the multi-channel techniques and uses of today.

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If it doesn't make that much difference how come they always sell centers that match the mains ? When listening to  a movie usually the center has sounds that blend over to the mains, why would you want any of them to have a different sound at all ?

 

No it's not mandatory, only if you want it to sound correct. Any center will work if big enough, it will match the mains in volume and fullness, but have a different tone if not a match.

 

When a person in the movie walks off to the sides should there voice change along with any other other sound effects, with a mismatched center it can happen, it distracts some people, some don't care.

 

The way most movies are recorded sometimes it's had to hear whispers unless it's turned up, a center which can't keep up with the mains makes this 10 times worse.

 

If you think none of this matters you apparently have not heard a perfect match ? Or you just didn't notice or don't care, either way which is OK if your happy with it.

 

All of this was beat into my head over years of reading here, when I finally got the perfect match the :emotion-55: went off realizing what everyone was saying over the years.

 

ymmv

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On 8/30/2018 at 9:05 PM, Schu said:

You can absolutely change a speakers timbre by tuning it via EQ.

It may not be ideal or completely seem less, but it can be made to be very close.

Absolutely. I swapped out my front RB61 IIs with Ohm Walsh Tall 2000s. Kept everything else in place, most importantly my RC62II centre. After running Audessey the three mismatched front speakers work incredibly well together. So well in fact I have no plans on replacing my centre with an Ohm equivelant. The six inch drivers in the centre more than keep up with the 2000s. I’m not certain if this is a testament to the clarity and neutrality of the Klipsch centre or the Ohm mains. Perhaps a bit of both.

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7 hours ago, YK Thom said:

Absolutely. I swapped out my front RB61 IIs with Ohm Walsh Tall 2000s. Kept everything else in place, most importantly my RC62II centre.

 

After running Audessey the three mismatched front speakers work incredibly well together. So well in fact I have no plans on replacing my centre with an Ohm equivalent.

 

The six inch drivers in the centre more than keep up with the 2000s.

You made several good points with which I would agree. 

 

There are many variants of horizontal center speakers and I've found I like the sound of the 6"-7" mid-bass woofers.  If you run an MTM with 6" drivers they are pushing as much air as a single 12".

 

I've also found running Audyssey helps to blend my mis-matched L/C/R into a cohesive front end.

 

I have not heard an RC-62 but I would like to.  I don't think there's any magic in my RC-64 for center sound, I think the extra two outboard woofers give me a little better off-axis listening experience.  I also have a dome tweeter MTM center with high quality 7" Usher drivers and a dome tweeter.  It sounded great between my Khorns and absolutely kept up, even at higher SPL's.

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3 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

You made several good points with which I would agree. 

 

There are many variants of horizontal center speakers and I've found I like the sound of the 6"-7" mid-bass woofers.  If you run an MTM with 6" drivers they are pushing as much air as a single 12".

 

I've also found running Audyssey helps to blend my mis-matched L/C/R into a cohesive front end.

 

I have not heard an RC-62 but I would like to.  I don't think there's any magic in my RC-64 for center sound, I think the extra two outboard woofers give me a little better off-axis listening experience.  I also have a dome tweeter MTM center with high quality 7" Usher drivers and a dome tweeter.  It sounded great between my Khorns and absolutely kept up, even at higher SPL's.

I agree, for some reason the 6/7” drivers seem to be the sweet spot for home audio centres. My dialogue is very clear and uncoloured. In fact it is on right now as my wife is watching the news. 

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Differences in 'timbre' between speakers can be heard easily by playing a 'noise' sound - most home theater amplifiers have a noise generator to set /check the speaker levels which can be used for this 'test.

I  think timbre matching the Center to the L/R is over-rated.

 

 

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  • 6 months later...
On 8/31/2018 at 5:39 AM, NotOnSugarMountain said:

You're right, I do need to live a little. Despite the good points of the naysayers, I'm gonna experiment with some mismatching!

 

Thanks for that. I will rerun Yamaha's YPAO with the B&W/Klipsch mismatch to see if it helps smooth things out.

 

Thanks for this detail and your Disclaimer. Understood. I am thinking about your concern that I'm going small on the Klipsch center. And that 1 3/4" titanium dome tweeter on the  55 pound RC-III does read like a serious upgrade from my current 6 pound satellite center! And what's the point of mismatching if I don't go BIG center? However, please explain why you like your centers to deliver bass down to 57Hz when...

  1. male vocals bottom out at about 100Hz.
  2. good subwoofers deliver the best low end.
  3. I've found that these multi-amp AVRs distribute power best to multiple speakers when I set my passive speakers to "small" and crossover all bass below 80Hz for the powered subwoofers to handle.
  4. Last, my flat screen is flush mounted on the wall (along with the left and right satellites) and that RC-64 III is 15" deep and the size of a tank. Yikes!

That is why I was thinking a smallish Klipsch center.

The reasoning IMO is that although most of the dialogue comes through the center channel, there is also the on-screen action that is presented as well. You’re correct in assuming that AVRs perform better when the speakers are set to “small”. I currently use the R-34C center in my setup. Although the center uses 3.5” drivers, I set the crossover on my AVR to 120hz, and that allows it to provide more dynamics and go louder without distorting. Don’t be afraid to use smaller centers...if its set up correctly it will perform quite well 👍

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I know that when I have used an Academy or a KLF-C7 that they sounded close to my Heresys...I also know (to me of course) that my Center Heresy sounds perfect with my Heresy Mains...

 

Having tried the KLF-C7 between my updated kg2s it also sounds close...using the KLF-C7 or the Heresy in between RB-5 lls sounded terrible...to the extent that I couldn't listen to it is a Home Theater setting either with music or movies...

 

YMMV

 

Bill

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