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Full Circle, VRD in the house again


joessportster

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On my third set of VRD amps by Craig Ostby, whom we all know here on klipsch forums. 
I sold the first 2 sets. I am listening and for the life of me I can not hear why 
anyone would ever sell these amps.  While I Pretend I dont know why I sold the amps
the truth is I do know. I had a vastly different audio setup.


It has been quite a long journey to get here. "Full Circle" is how Craig described
it.  My first tube experience was a visit to Garymd Home where he had
a pair of Craigs upgraded Dynaco MK3 Monos connected to K-Hornss in his basement, and 
upstairs he had one of Craigs refreshed 299 integrated connected to cornwalls.

 

I remember leaving Gay's home with one thing on my mind, I am getting TUBES" I promptly 
sold my SS Phase Linear and Onkyo Gear, I sold my Beloved Infinity RS3B. I contacted Craig
and ordered a pair of upgraded Dynaco MK3, A few days Later I swithed that order to Craigs VRD
Now you see where Full Circle comes into play, My very first Tube amp was a pair of VRD
and My final Tube amps are the VRD again :ph34r:

 

Synergy my friends, Synergy is the name of this game we are all chasing. I gave up vinyl for a few
reasons. and am now 100% digital Mainly PC to dac to preamp to amps to speakers. Set on the couch
and have over 3000 LP at the click of a mouse to choose from. With Digital come all those drawbacks
Edgy, Bright, Fatiguing SQ with no emotion to draw one into the music (why even listen, It can suck
I tell you)

 

I have made some major changes to my listening area and gear of late, and I can tell you I was mightily 
DISSAPPOINTED, There was soundstage to die for, there was imaging, I have detail, some Music never 
sounded so good. Then why the hell am I ready to turn it off after only a few minutes ? I wont bore 
you further with each piece that came and went in an effort to find the problem. I will just say 
there were 3 SET varients, and 1 PP that quickly came and went. I was made an offer by Michael to
purchase his spare set of VRD (Who the heck has the dough to keep a pair of VRD as spares)

 

Enter the VRD's with a Jupiter Cap upgrade. AAAAAHHHHHHHH  HHHHHAAAAAA, There it is. The missing Link
Digital sounds fine now, 4 plus hour listening sessions and HAPPY to be there again.
While the VRD may not be the final word in amplifiers I cann tell you in my setup I seriously doubt 
anyone could find fault with them. I know when the music is causing emotion, I have a tell
I will have a chill run up my spine. The VRD have evoked more chills than anything I can recall
for quite some time.

 

Thank you Craig AKA NOS Valves, Michael (AKA SCHU), You actually have my wife commenting on the music
no small feat. When I ask for an opinion it's like pulling teeth. For her to walk up and offer an 
opinion is unheard of. You guys have put the MUSIC back into my MUSIC

 

System = PC >  Wavelength Cosecant DAC > Ed Schillig Truth Pre-amp > Craigs VRD's  amps> DIY single driver speakers  :) 

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I still have significant issues with a computer based server music system.

 

it just seems off to me when I compare it to simply playing a quality disc... I just gave up on it and I spent thousands trying to chase the convenience.

 

I just play discs or flash drive now thru my Oppo as an input device without any conversion and I am VERY happy.

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56 minutes ago, Schu said:

I still have significant issues with a computer based server music system.

 

it just seems off to me when I compare it to simply playing a quality disc... I just gave up on it and I spent thousands trying to chase the convenience.

 

I just play discs or flash drive now thru my Oppo as an input device without any conversion and I am VERY happy.

I bought an older used Acer PC downloaded J-River, Downloaded EAC, The dac IMHO must be NOS (non over sampling) Dac connected to your pre....................Every Delta / Sigma Dac I have heard retains that digital edge which for me leads to fatigue.  I have a very nice rig for listening to disc's but rarely use it now Theta Transport and Electrocompaniet DAC it is a very good dac but upsamples everything and using it with the PC just did not sound as good as a NOS. I came from a basically all vinyl playback to this digital

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I am surprised honestly.   I have compared side to side in my systems and in the studio and I dumped disc's 10 years ago.   The difference wasn't the least bit subtle.  I heard the EXTREME opposite of what you both heard.  Vinyl trumps digital IMO but guess what?   I'm not spending $10 for every two songs I want to hear.  Hence uncompressed FLAC and WAV files for me. 

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On 8/31/2018 at 9:22 PM, Schu said:

I still have significant issues with a computer based server music system.

 

it just seems off to me when I compare it to simply playing a quality disc... I just gave up on it and I spent thousands trying to chase the convenience.

 

I just play discs or flash drive now thru my Oppo as an input device without any conversion and I am VERY happy.

 

A few years ago, I talked about my MS 2012 server OS running on a CAPS 2.0 PC which I still use.  Recently I was making use of a trial install of ROON that proved to be quite interesting!  To be clear, I'll describe the before and after configurations.

 

Before:  Audio PC running FOOBAR2000 with FLAC files stored locally on an external SATA drive connected to the audio PC.

After: Audio PC running ROON Bridge.  ROON server loaded on Intel NUC computer with FLAC files stored on NUC's internal SATA drive.

So basically the difference was the software players and the FLAC files being located on a 2nd computer instead of the Audio PC.  With the ROON configuration, all the audio PC had to do was send the data to USB.  You can also create a 2 PC configuration with Audiophile Optimizer and FOOBAR but I haven't tried that.

 

There was NO other equipment change!  I point this out because the difference in sound was impressive... the whole clarity, hearing things I didn't hear before kind of thing!  I'm wondering how much taking the load off my audio PC helped things.   My system requires a tiny touch of EQ in the player so I was comparing with this turned off in both.  Roon is capable of more precision with EQ so I was able to improve even more with this. 

 

Don't even get me started with how awesome ROON is to use!  It is so far beyond other players it is crazy!  It isn't perfect... I can think of a change or two I would make but it adds a whole new dimension of enjoying music.  Here is a review/description.  CD's can't touch this experience.   LP's are closer with the album covers and such and I still like the playing records experience at times.   Sometimes it IS better to not be able to switch around between songs easily.

 

 

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On 8/31/2018 at 11:28 PM, Westcoastdrums said:

I am surprised honestly.   I have compared side to side in my systems and in the studio and I dumped disc's 10 years ago.   The difference wasn't the least bit subtle.  I heard the EXTREME opposite of what you both heard.  Vinyl trumps digital IMO but guess what?   I'm not spending $10 for every two songs I want to hear.  Hence uncompressed FLAC and WAV files for me. 

I did not switch to digital because I thought it was better, It was basically forced upon me.......I was Injured and we pretty much lost everything, I had to sell all my vinyl and my complete system. At which time I only had space for digital and headphones I spent 4 years with strictly headphones and Digital.  I tried to get back to vinyl but have found people are jumping on the bandwagon as they did tubes and now vinyl is mostly overpriced. I have another table on the way here but dont know how much if any use it will get. I want to get the transcendent sound tube phono pre. and then only pick up quality vinyl at a reasonable price. The digital has become so convenient that it is here to stay............

 

 

Muel, I must now look into this Roon you speak of................What DAC are you using ? or are you straight out of your PC into your pre / int.

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2 hours ago, muel said:

 

A few years ago, I talked about my MS 2012 server OS running on a CAPS 2.0 PC which I still use.  Recently I was making use of a trial install of ROON that proved to be quite interesting!  To be clear, I'll describe the before and after configurations.

 

Before:  Audio PC running FOOBAR2000 with FLAC files stored locally on an external SATA drive connected to the audio PC.

After: Audio PC running ROON Bridge.  ROON server loaded on Intel NUC computer with FLAC files stored on NUC's internal SATA drive.

So basically the difference was the software players and the FLAC files being located on a 2nd computer instead of the Audio PC.  With the ROON configuration, all the audio PC had to do was send the data to USB.  You can also create a 2 PC configuration with Audiophile Optimizer and FOOBAR but I haven't tried that.

 

There was NO other equipment change!  I point this out because the difference in sound was impressive... the whole clarity, hearing things I didn't hear before kind of thing!  I'm wondering how much taking the load off my audio PC helped things.   My system requires a tiny touch of EQ in the player so I was comparing with this turned off in both.  Roon is capable of more precision with EQ so I was able to improve even more with this. 

 

Don't even get me started with how awesome ROON is to use!  It is so far beyond other players it is crazy!  It isn't perfect... I can think of a change or two I would make but it adds a whole new dimension of enjoying music.  Here is a review/description.  CD's can't touch this experience.   LP's are closer with the album covers and such and I still like the playing records experience at times.   Sometimes it IS better to not be able to switch around between songs easily.

 

 

Am I right Roon is basically  music management and to play the music it is streamed wireless to your PC, Laptop or ? that is connected to your system ?  Joe

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Roon looks nice but, for $119 per year, I think I'll stick with JRiver that's worked great for me over the last 5 years.  JRiver lets me upgrade/update as I feel like it; I might be a few versions behind, but it works great, sounds great, and functions like I need it to.

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ROON is fricken expensive!  

You also get a lot more than you do with other players.  Better be willing to pay the cost before you try it :)

It can be used on wired or wireless but I would keep the server on wired.  

You can play directly from your ROON server but it is better to have it on a network and use a ROON compatible device.  The device can be wireless or wired.  Some act as DAC or act as your conversion to USB (ROON Bridge) to connect to your USB DAC.   The ALLO Sparky is an awesome example of a ROON device that connects to your network and to your USB DAC (replacing your PC that is currently connect to the DAC).  Don't let the price fool you!  It is way better than your PC or Apple!  You still have to have a PC (or compatible NAS ) to run the ROON Server software.  Something for me to get used to is that I have to use my iphone or ipad as a controller of ROON.   The iPhone app is limited due to screen space, for example, there is no way to make changes to DSP settings on the iPhone.  I have to use the iPad for that.  There is no PC application for controlling unless you use the PC for everything (not the best way)... you use Apple ios or Android for control.

 

Whatever you use for a audio PC now could be used as your ROON server (I prefer a computer dedicated to this use) and you could buy the ALLO sparky to connect your USB DAC.   I assuming you already have a home network.  Except for the cost of ROON that is a really inexpensive way to start.   If you want to really find a new level in good sound look at the SoTM SMS-200ultra neo.  

 

ROON Partners: https://roonlabs.com/partners.html

How it works: https://roonlabs.com/howroonworks.html

There are good youtube videos for ROON if you look.  

 

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Jriver burnt their bridges with me when the version I installed many years ago, by default, started replacing all my album art automatically.  It got about a 1/4 of the way through my music before I noticed.  I was pretty mad as I had hand picked images in higher resolution... their apology didn't mean much.  A free upgrade or something might have mended the fence but I was done.  I have many backups now but at the time my backup had a problem or something.  

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On 9/7/2018 at 3:20 PM, muel said:

ROON is fricken expensive!  

You also get a lot more than you do with other players.  Better be willing to pay the cost before you try it :)

It can be used on wired or wireless but I would keep the server on wired.  

You can play directly from your ROON server but it is better to have it on a network and use a ROON compatible device.  The device can be wireless or wired.  Some act as DAC or act as your conversion to USB (ROON Bridge) to connect to your USB DAC.   The ALLO Sparky is an awesome example of a ROON device that connects to your network and to your USB DAC (replacing your PC that is currently connect to the DAC).  Don't let the price fool you!  It is way better than your PC or Apple!  You still have to have a PC (or compatible NAS ) to run the ROON Server software.  Something for me to get used to is that I have to use my iphone or ipad as a controller of ROON.   The iPhone app is limited due to screen space, for example, there is no way to make changes to DSP settings on the iPhone.  I have to use the iPad for that.  There is no PC application for controlling unless you use the PC for everything (not the best way)... you use Apple ios or Android for control.

 

Whatever you use for a audio PC now could be used as your ROON server (I prefer a computer dedicated to this use) and you could buy the ALLO sparky to connect your USB DAC.   I assuming you already have a home network.  Except for the cost of ROON that is a really inexpensive way to start.   If you want to really find a new level in good sound look at the SoTM SMS-200ultra neo.  

 

ROON Partners: https://roonlabs.com/partners.html

How it works: https://roonlabs.com/howroonworks.html

There are good youtube videos for ROON if you look.  

 

Good information here! Thanks.

Allo seems like an interesting company. after going DAC mad for many years I settled on the MSB Link III with Channel Islands modded. In the recent year I came up with the Channel Islands DAC. Both are very low jitter fatigue to me. I do use the AQ Dragonfly with a PC for Spotify. Found the laptop sounds better running off the battery rather than plugged in. Small radio station 2 miles down the road seems to use the AC cord as an antenna or something. 

 

With Digital everything makes a difference.

 

I was going to upgrade the OP Amps in my Link III but may just spend some money on an Allo solution. Odd that Allo does not use metal cases for shielding.....

 

Been thinking about ROON for a few years. Most informative thread for my interest in some time. 

 

 

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/08/sparkos-labs-discrete-op-amps-review.html

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I went to the local PC repair shop and bought an older ASUS pc. I have been using it for a few years now as my server 1.2 TB of music on HD. running J-River PC connected connected to wavelength cosecant usb tube dac.  connected to the Truth Pre, Connected to the VRD's ultimately to the Audio Nirvana in Open Baffle. This is the most palpable set up I have had in a while. I usually find that a setup is best for 1 genre or the other. I also found I would run into some genre that was unlistenable.  The Open Baffle / VRD set up has yet to force me to switch off 

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