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Is this common? I am hearing new things in music I know well (or so I thought...)


Oicu812

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PWK called this being able to hear "the inner voices" of the music.  Not a mystic sort of thing.  Rather that high distortion speakers obscure the inner voices and low distortion speakers allow them to be heard.  

 

Dynamics is another part of the picture.  Klipsch speaker are excellent in this regard and soon you come to expect it.

 

The stories are always the same.  Excellent recordings sound excellent, good recordings sound good, and poor recordings sound poor.  The poor ones might sound okay on other speakers because we're use to it.  It could be that modern processing in the mix is the problem.  See below.

 

Heyser reported that sometimes you hear live music coming from another room and know it is not a recording.  K-Horns we're like that he said.  I think we don't get "in the same room" because the recordings have the sound of the recording room and when that is added to the listening room, it is not quite right.  Same for any set up unless the recording room and / or listening room is anechoic.

 

One more thing is worth mentioning.  When the Internet was just starting I read a report about a fellow who had either actual '78s and maybe even digital preservations of '78s and Edison cylinders.  Certainly not modern good recordings.  A buddy of his set up a listening session with K-Horns and the historic recordings and the fellow wondered how this could be worthwhile.  (I'd kind of agree given that such old media was noisy and limited in frequency range, perhaps.)

 

Yet, the fellow was highly impressed with the results of the listening session and said, "Yes, yes, it is all worthwhile."  

 

I conclude that such recording media, lacking processing, does preserve the inner voices which the K-Horns reveal so well.

 

WMcD

 

 

Quote

 

=]]]

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On 9/3/2018 at 8:39 AM, Oicu812 said:

I'm listening to some Eagles this morning, and I am hearing some subtle things, riffs under the main melody line that I haven't heard before, some "flourishes", things like that. 

 

Is this a common thing that happens around here?  You get into some decent Klipsch, and suddenly music you thought you knew well "comes to life", and starts giving you a new level of sound?

 

 

Yep! Pretty amazing what really good equipment can sound like, eh? :-)

Also makes you know how dirty your LPs are! ;-)

John Kuthe...

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On 9/3/2018 at 8:39 AM, Oicu812 said:

I'm listening to some Eagles this morning, and I am hearing some subtle things, riffs under the main melody line that I haven't heard before, some "flourishes", things like that.  Is this a common thing that happens around here?  You get into some decent Klipsch, and suddenly music you thought you knew well "comes to life", and starts giving you a new level of sound?

See the following PWK article from 1970 (Audio magazine) that describes the greater portion of the "why": The Mud Factor.pdf

 

Note that properly done horn-loaded loudspeakers have generally inaudible levels of modulation distortion over direct radiating loudspeakers, even at very high SPL--a fact that is consistently overlooked by audiophile magazines and other self-appointed audio equipment rating "experts"--because they don't recognize that it's the difference in modulation distortion levels that they hear when comparing horn-loaded to direct radiating.

 

Also note that bass modulation distortion is at least an equal factor in loudspeaker clarity as midrange modulation distortion.  You should try to hear a pair of La Scalas, Belles, Klipschorns, or Jubilees, all with horn-loaded bass bins to understand the full meaning  of "clarity".  This is also true of the multiple entry horns of Danley Sound Labs and the earlier Sound Physics Labs.  Clarity is the distinguishing feature of all these loudspeakers.

 

Chris

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PWK called this being able to hear "the inner voices" of the music.  Not a mystic sort of thing.  Rather that high distortion speakers obscure the inner voices and low distortion speakers allow them to be heard.  
 
Dynamics is another part of the picture.  Klipsch speaker are excellent in this regard and soon you come to expect it.
 
The stories are always the same.  Excellent recordings sound excellent, good recordings sound good, and poor recordings sound poor.  The poor ones might sound okay on other speakers because we're use to it.  It could be that modern processing in the mix is the problem.  See below.
 
Heyser reported that sometimes you hear live music coming from another room and know it is not a recording.  K-Horns we're like that he said.  I think we don't get "in the same room" because the recordings have the sound of the recording room and when that is added to the listening room, it is not quite right.  Same for any set up unless the recording room and / or listening room is anechoic.
 
One more thing is worth mentioning.  When the Internet was just starting I read a report about a fellow who had either actual '78s and maybe even digital preservations of '78s and Edison cylinders.  Certainly not modern good recordings.  A buddy of his set up a listening session with K-Horns and the historic recordings and the fellow wondered how this could be worthwhile.  (I'd kind of agree given that such old media was noisy and limited in frequency range, perhaps.)
 
Yet, the fellow was highly impressed with the results of the listening session and said, "Yes, yes, it is all worthwhile."  
 
I conclude that such recording media, lacking processing, does preserve the inner voices which the K-Horns reveal so well.
 
WMcD
 
 
 
=]]]

“The inner voices “ thank you W MD. Thank you PWK.


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Efficiency and clarity are very important, especially in a large room However there are limits to the desirability of this with many recordings. We mustn’t get confused with recorded and live music. One will always be presention of the other. A certain amount of distortion is needed for an enjoyable listening experience. In the real world all sound is within a larger environment which flavours tibre, tone, volume etc. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing; humans do not live in anachoic chambers. There is a reason many love the sound tube amps in general and with horn loaded speakers in particular. The addition of “warm” tube distortion is sonically pleasant and in the case of horn loaded speakers, adds an organic realism to what can be a too clinical sounding experience. A quirk of the design and technology.

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On 9/6/2018 at 9:52 AM, Chris A said:

See the following PWK article from 1970 (Audio magazine) that describes the greater portion of the "why": The Mud Factor.pdf

 

Note that properly done horn-loaded loudspeakers have generally inaudible levels of modulation distortion over direct radiating loudspeakers, even at very high SPL--a fact that is consistently overlooked by audiophile magazines and other self-appointed audio equipment rating "experts"--because they don't recognize that it's the difference in modulation distortion levels that they hear when comparing horn-loaded to direct radiating.

 

Also note that bass modulation distortion is at least an equal factor in loudspeaker clarity as midrange modulation distortion.  You should try to hear a pair of La Scalas, Belles, Klipschorns, or Jubilees, all with horn-loaded bass bins to understand the full meaning  of "clarity".  This is also true of the multiple entry horns of Danley Sound Labs and the earlier Sound Physics Labs.  Clarity is the distinguishing feature of all these loudspeakers.

 

Chris

 

Thank you for the linked article!  So, the smaller the excursion on the diaphragm, the amount of flexion is smaller reducing the distortion.  That makes sense from a strictly mechanical point of view.  The more you move the woofer diaphragms out of shape, twisting and flexing the cone, the shape will be "off" when producing multiple sounds simultaneously.  Harmonics might be easier to produce, since the wave form is already "shaped", and therefore the distortion would be less disturbing to the human ear.

 

I've watched some woofers shuddering, especially with some of the more "modern" stuff.  The rap / street / techno / house stuff full of artificial bass (primarily produced by the Roland TR-808 rhythm "computer" from the late '70's onward) really do a number on woofers and subs.  It's never really been my cup o' tea, but each to their own.  It IS fun to watch the speakers work to produce these sounds.

 

I was in the Navy back in the early '80's when I first ran into some Klipsch equipment being utilized on stage.  Grand Funk Railroad was playing at a large local club which could hold 5 - 600 people at a guess.  I was at one side of the stage, near one of the speaker stacks, where I remember seeing the Klipsch logos.  That was a good concert, because I noticed that Mark (lead singer and guitarist) was tripping over his cord rather frequently.  I grabbed the cord and started paying it out when he went to the other side, and pulled it back in when he got closer.  He realized what I was doing the gave me a fast thumbs up.  This in turn got the roadies bringing me beer all night, which I was totally okay with.  After the show I met the band and crew, and they signed a set of drumsticks for me.  It was a blast.  I just wish I could remember what the speakers were.

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On 9/3/2018 at 8:39 AM, Oicu812 said:

I'm listening to some Eagles this morning, and I am hearing some subtle things, riffs under the main melody line that I haven't heard before, some "flourishes", things like that. 

 

Is this a common thing that happens around here?  You get into some decent Klipsch, and suddenly music you thought you knew well "comes to life", and starts giving you a new level of sound?

 

 

Above and beyond improving components I am finding more and more much of my music simply being run through Audacity and just normalizing at a higher data rate yields great definition benefits.

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On 9/3/2018 at 8:39 AM, Oicu812 said:

I'm listening to some Eagles this morning, and I am hearing some subtle things, riffs under the main melody line that I haven't heard before, some "flourishes", things like that. 

 

Is this a common thing that happens around here?  You get into some decent Klipsch, and suddenly music you thought you knew well "comes to life", and starts giving you a new level of sound?

 

 

Above and beyond improving components I am finding more and more much of my music simply being run through Audacity and just normalizing at a higher data rate yields great definition benefits.

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On 9/5/2018 at 11:05 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

To answer your 2 questions in the order asked:  No. Yes.

 

This is not a diminishing returns upgrade, this is a "get your money/time's worth" upgrade. I would have it no other way.

 

Okay, the only Cornwalls I can find in Florida are these Pro versions, listed in Daytona Beach.  Are they actually WORTH $950 for the pair in the shape they are in?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-Vintage-Klipsch-Cornwall-Industrial-Speakers-local-pickup-only/273389766050?hash=item3fa74cc5a2:g:aQYAAOSwuD9ZzlKt

 

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7 minutes ago, Oicu812 said:

 

Okay, the only Cornwalls I can find in Florida are these Pro versions, listed in Daytona Beach.  Are they actually WORTH $950 for the pair in the shape they are in?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-Vintage-Klipsch-Cornwall-Industrial-Speakers-local-pickup-only/273389766050?hash=item3fa74cc5a2:g:aQYAAOSwuD9ZzlKt

 

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Those look pretty rough cosmetically for that price, I have seen really nice Cornwalls go for about $950. Remember too that black speakers like that may be fine in your room but they may be harder to sell if you choose to down the road. I would let them sit on the market for a few weeks and give them an offer around $700.

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21 hours ago, twk123 said:

Those look pretty rough cosmetically for that price, I have seen really nice Cornwalls go for about $950. Remember too that black speakers like that may be fine in your room but they may be harder to sell if you choose to down the road. I would let them sit on the market for a few weeks and give them an offer around $700.

Those woofers represent the best of the K33's ever made,  IMHO...................they are K33P's which were made by CTS of Paducah (I zoomed in after Photoshop Interpolation to verify), also I remember the stamped frames are different from any by Eminence, the current manufacturer. I had a pair in my FH-1 bass horns, and in my basement office, those suckers went down to 30 Hz. so I can only imagine what they do in a Cornwall. I should have kept those.  Also, the square magnet K77's suggest they were upgraded in the late 70's or early 80's, even though the cabinet is from the 60's. Just saying. Xovers need new capacitors, but those are cheap to do. They may be worth it for those who care about such details.

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21 hours ago, twk123 said:

Those look pretty rough cosmetically for that price, I have seen really nice Cornwalls go for about $950. Remember too that black speakers like that may be fine in your room but they may be harder to sell if you choose to down the road.

 

I would let them sit on the market for a few weeks and give them an offer around $700.

Agree, spot on.

 

The Cornwalls listed look rough.  I don't know about "Pro" Cornwalls but I show Corwall I's in good condition averaging $801.  The Cornwall II is at $961.

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13 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Those woofers represent the best of the K33's ever made,  IMHO...................they are K33P's which were made by CTS of Paducah (I zoomed in after Photoshop Interpolation to verify), also I remember the stamped frames are different from any by Eminence, the current manufacturer. I had a pair in my FH-1 bass horns, and in my basement office, those suckers went down to 30 Hz. so I can only imagine what they do in a Cornwall. I should have kept those.  Also, the square magnet K77's suggest they were upgraded in the late 70's or early 80's, even though the cabinet is from the 60's. Just saying. Xovers need new capacitors, but those are cheap to do. They may be worth it for those who care about such details.

 

Are these decorator cabs, then?  The Ebay ad says they are from 1974.  Maybe there is some decent woodgrain hiding under the black...

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1 minute ago, Oicu812 said:

 

Are these decorator cabs, then?  The Ebay ad says they are from 1974.  Maybe there is some decent woodgrain hiding under the black...

Decorator cabs, yes. The PWK pie in the corner is the telltale, but the 2 port slots suggest the '74 may be correct, but I've only experienced late 60's version myself.

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