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100dB

Belle: an unrequited love...

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Did you measure the 7k hump?  How big?  That's a pretty unusual place for Type AAs.  I suppose the filter might do that if the capacitor values are too far off.   Maybe the tolerance stack of tweeter response and filter error?  You can reduce some "hashiness" by front/flush mounting the tweeter.  One of the better mods I made.  Also, in '83 the tweeters were K-77-Ms.  They tolerate more power, 10 watts continuous, so don't need the KLiP diodes; unscrew one and push it to a safe place.  I can't say it will help a K-500 horn, but I calmed an edginess in my K-400 by covering it with warmed Dynamat, another small, but noticeable mod that can only hurt your wallet.  I also lined the opening in the motor board for the mid horn with felt to try to absorb reflections/diffraction from the opening.  Can't remember if I thought it was audible. 

 

A Klipsch that has a polite, recessed sound, like the music is behind the speaker or wall, probably needs new caps.  I can't remember hearing a Belle Klipsch so that may not apply to yours. 

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Welcome to the forums...

 

The crossovers, are 35+ years old, so if they are original, the caps need replacing.

 

I have found , as many others also have, that the mids are about 3db too hot (the mid driver is way efficient). I cut the mids back on my la scalas (same drivers), and cut the mids back. It helped the tonal balance tremendously.

 

Bruce

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Thanks guys. I spent time on Crites site, and it looks like one can essentially “re-voice” these speakers. Without breaking the bank. I appreciate everyone’s comments - thx again!

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Your not going to get much of an image with them only like six feet apart and pushed against the wall.  Spread them out and toe them in towards the listening area.

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I would update the crossovers them listen to them for awhile to see if that solves your problems. Later on, you could get new tweeters and mid-ranges from Bob Crites which from what I have been told is an awesome upgrade. I have a pair of belles and they are stock except for Bob Crites crossovers. They are not leaving my possession.

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I can't really speak to what they sound like stock as my Belle clones have all new drivers and crossovers in them.  Speaking of, I'm really looking forward to hearing them again when I can finally move them into my dedicated upstairs room.  But, I feel your pain with how they sound in an open concept house.  In our last house, they were about 6 feet apart and there really wasn't a way to do much more with them but I knew it was temporary.  Even though, they still sounded darn good and I din't notice any 7k peaks when using an RTA on them.  Maybe that has something to do with the all new drivers and crossover parts.  Maybe not.  But, cap changes are the first thing I'd do which is very easy.  Bob's caps are fine and there are also the Dayton 1% tolerance caps, Audyn caps (in my Belle's), Solen caps, and on and on.  

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4 hours ago, Frzninvt said:

Your not going to get much of an image with them only like six feet apart and pushed against the wall.  Spread them out and toe them in towards the listening area.

 

 

I agree with this. Horns like to be spread as far apart as possible. This will make them sound more like music and less like a stereo system.

 

Shakey

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9 hours ago, Frzninvt said:

Your not going to get much of an image with them only like six feet apart and pushed against the wall.  Spread them out and toe them in towards the listening area.

Do I really need new crossovers? Or drivers? Or horns? I love “all original”, and these are all original. 1982. AA crossovers. 

.....................................

Yes you need new crossover components. I listened to my belles for 1.5 years and then changed the crossovers 10 years ago. Serious improvement! Agree with FRZ comment about spacing and toeing in.

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Wow. Placement and crossovers are certainly doable. I’ll need to get creative with the layout of the room, but that can be fun. Thx!

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Hey again. I’ve truly tried to enjoy my experience with the Belles. It’s not happening for me, and it’s not like I’m a newby to all (or any) things audio. Dynamics are amazing. But that mysterious “it” factor is being elusive. I find them thin, with vague imaging, and a harsh top end. I’ve moved them as much as is practical in my place. I’ve spoken with Bob Crites about upgrades, etc. I’ve looked into subs. (Inhale/exhale.) I’m ready to let them go. I’m too tied up in other things to take on another project. Pass the word around - they’re available.

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17 minutes ago, 100dB said:

Pass the word around - they’re available.

List away in the garage sale section. Sorry they aren't your cup of tea but maybe another forum member can take them off your hands and hopefully enjoy them.

 

Good luck finding something that tickles your fancy!

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9 hours ago, 100dB said:

Hey again. I’ve truly tried to enjoy my experience with the Belles. It’s not happening for me, and it’s not like I’m a newby to all (or any) things audio. Dynamics are amazing. But that mysterious “it” factor is being elusive. I find them thin, with vague imaging, and a harsh top end. I’ve moved them as much as is practical in my place. I’ve spoken with Bob Crites about upgrades, etc. I’ve looked into subs. (Inhale/exhale.) I’m ready to let them go. I’m too tied up in other things to take on another project. Pass the word around - they’re available.

Up until this morning I've resisted commenting on this thread, but now I'm breaking down.....In the FS thread you said that your room is the problem, and that you can't change it.....I realize that you may not be able to "change rooms", or even the general configuration, but can you not change the audio "properties" of the room by adding some stylish and effective treatments to the walls/ceiling?  Have you swapped in different amps/preamps?  Listened with CD/vinyl?  I may be reading this wrong, but it doesn't seem that you've exhausted most of the possibilities in order to correct the issue.  As a recording engineer/audiologist, I'm sure you have a very good handle on what your options could/should be....  If they are all original, I think it's imperative to update the crossovers and at least the tweeters.  If that doesn't work for you, you can easily recoup those costs with the sale of the entire package at a higher price.

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10 hours ago, 100dB said:

Hey again. I’ve truly tried to enjoy my experience with the Belles. It’s not happening for me, and it’s not like I’m a newby to all (or any) things audio. Dynamics are amazing. But that mysterious “it” factor is being elusive. I find them thin, with vague imaging, and a harsh top end. I’ve moved them as much as is practical in my place. I’ve spoken with Bob Crites about upgrades, etc. I’ve looked into subs. (Inhale/exhale.) I’m ready to let them go. I’m too tied up in other things to take on another project. Pass the word around - they’re available.

You only gave them a week? Did you post a picture of the new configuration? I would have part of left Belle covering the brick and toed in. Have other speaker covering the structure to the right and toed in.

 

You seem to be taking lightly the results of capacitor changes.

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So, how far back is your listening position? Did I miss that somewhere in here? I had my LaScalas close together for a while, only about 4 feet between them (inside corners). Only another18 inches or so from the outside corners to the walls. Imaging was spooky real and the tonal balance was great (I did drop the mids though...). The sound stage was wider than the speakers were apart.

 

Have you checked to make sure everything is in phase? Thin sounding and no imaging sounds to me like something is not wired correctly. No offense is intended.

 

Bruce

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8 minutes ago, Marvel said:

So, how far back is your listening position? Did I miss that somewhere in here? I had my LaScalas close together for a while, only about 4 feet between them (inside corners). Only another18 inches or so from the outside corners to the walls. Imaging was spooky real and the tonal balance was great (I did drop the mids though...). The sound stage was wider than the speakers were apart.

 

Have you checked to make sure everything is in phase? Thin sounding and no imaging sounds to me like something is not wired correctly. No offense is intended.

 

Bruce

Bruce, photo of his room config is on page 1.

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Thanks, Jim. I just looked again, and at that distance the imaging should be fine. Looks almost nearfield... I would still check all the connections on the crossovers to make sure they are correct. Even if they are all original, they could have come from the factory wired incorrectly. I've seen crazier things in my life.

 

Bruce

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The Crites Type A crossovers are now installed, and there is certainly a difference! This difference seems less tonal in nature as it is about phase consistency between left and right channels. Images are much more focused, with phantom center being much more precise.

 

A sub will be next, as I can live with the sonic signature I’m getting now. I’d like to keep things as original as possible. Thx for the good advice!

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Just a quick “thanks” to all who have offered tips and tricks to get these Belles up to their potential.

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