Forte II as bass bin

[rplace]

Lots of threads out there on Corn-something. Especially CornScala ala Bob C. If someone wanted to experiment with a forte II as a base cabinet for a 2-way system, would a reasonable place to start be:

 

1. Disconnect and remove internal crossover
2. Wire woofer directly to terminal cup
3. Leave everything else (HF/Mid horn and driver) in place to keep the internal volume the same
4. Fire it up with mid-range of choice and apply DSP as necessary

 

Any 4 vs 8 ohm concerns? Is the passive the big obstacle to overcome if trying a DIY cabinet from scratch?

 

I've always thought the Forte, Forte II and chorus I/II had a pretty nice low end. Why no love for the forte over the Cornwall as a starting point?

 

 

[moray james]

if you want to make more bass you want to make the internal volume as large as you can. you can re tune the passive lower by adding 2 - 2.5 ounces directly to the centre of the passive inside. I would turn the cabinet sideways fire the woofer toward the outer walls and place the horn on top or into the side of the cabinet and listen directly to that. you can find lots of passive two way crossovers that will work for you EV JBL Crites all sorts of stuff.

[moray james]

Bob Crites has a very nice two way design the Cornscala D go take a look at that. You really need to explain what it is that you are attempting to achieve or what it is that your goal is or most of this is just going to be less than helpful due to lack of focus.

[rplace]

25 minutes ago, moray james said:

Bob Crites has a very nice two way design the Cornscala D go take a look at that. You really need to explain what it is that you are attempting to achieve or what it is that your goal is or most of this is just going to be less than helpful due to lack of focus.

 

I've been experimenting a bit with a 2-way active set up that is made up of Oris 150 full range horns with Audio Nirvana 8" drivers. To fill in the low end I have Onken style bass bins with 10" drivers. @Chris A, @Coytee, @babadono and many others have been super helpful getting me up to speed with my Xilica 8080 DSP. While I really like the sound so far, I think the bass is just a tad light. That is to say it does not have the impact I'd like. I know everything is a trade off but since it is so easy to swap out the LF with an active set up, I started playing around. I don't really care for the appearance or height of a Khorn bass bin with them and I like the ability to direct the speaker toward my listening position. I have La Scalas in my garage but before I dragged them in I decided to try my Belle center's bass bin and compare it to the Onken set up. So I disconnected the Belle's passive XO slid it over to my Oris horn and ran the left side as an Oris 150/Belle (LF only) and the other as Oris/Onken. The Belle had some punch, but not low enough. I actually liked the Onken 10" direct radiator better than the Belle. Also I'm not sure I want to run a sub for my 2-channel listening just yet, and I fear with a belle or LS bass bin I will ultimately want a sub.

 

Next I started thinking cornscala and a DIY build of just the bass bin part in a height/width that would fit my needs. Of course I looked over everything at Bob' site. While totally doable it has some obvious costs....and for me some time which I don't really have. I would like to have tested first with a cornwall like I did the belle, but I don't own a pair. That got me to thinking of the age old debate with passion on both sides.....what do you like better a Cornwall or a Forte/Chorus. I've actually heard plenty and always like the Forte II best, I know most like the cornwall. Still there are enough people that like the Forte/Chorus that I think the debate will never be settled. I actually think people are thinking with their heart on the CW/Forte debate. The CW is a speaker that has been around forever, an original, a beloved companion. I can see it getting the sentimental nod. But why did PWK have Fortes in his office (or so I have been told). The cornwall always sounds a bit fat/flabby to me. Don't get me wrong the CW is a fine speaker. I like it a lot and has the ability to make poor recordings sound better than Khorn/LS. For me it is the Forte II even over the Chorus/Chorus II.

 

So if I like a Forte II best for music, why wouldn't I like it better as a bass bin? I've got a pair. it seems like a much better place to start over building a CW bass bin only, making it pretty enough to go in my room (looks matter to me) without really knowing how it might fare. So I'm here asking if money/time/parts were no issue like it is for so many on these forums why is the CW the bass bin of choice for making a non-horn loaded bass section of a DIY/custom Klipsch inspired speaker?

 

I could live happily ever after with my current Oris/Onken 10", but you know how it is you always want "more" in this hobby.

[Coytee]

8 minutes ago, rplace said:

So I'm here asking if money/time/parts were no issue like it is for so many on these forums why is the CW the bass bin of choice for making a non-horn loaded bass section of a DIY/custom Klipsch inspired speaker?

 

"got me"

 

My only experience (with ownership) of non-horn speakers my entire adulthood....  was owning a pair of EV Interface D's.  They had a deep bass that I always described as (and I do NOT expect this to make sense to anyone) feeling like you were falling into a DEEP pillow and the sides of the pillow (think crash mat) billow up around you.  The more you fall into it, the deeper you go and the more they billow out to the sides.

 

Now....how in the world does that make sense?  Again "got me"!!  But that is how I always felt about them.

 

Perhaps it was the more gentle presentation of them (read higher distortion) than the highly transient LaScalas I also owned.

 

Maybe you prefer that softer, more plush sound of a direct/radiator than the horns?

 

I'll admit I've never been able to reproduce the "fullness" (distortion filled?) sound I had when I played the EV's.  The LaScalas didn't do it....Khorns didn't do it and nope, the Jubilee's don't do it.  

 

After something like five years of ownership, I've STILL not really put any effort into dialing in the Danley sub I have.  Does IT "do it"....... nope.  But then, not being dialed in might be why.  It seems to be sitting there silent....  just waiting....  then when it perks up, all hell breaks loose, then it's back to dormant.  I think I need to adjust how quick it comes on....  but....  I now have a new tractor that needs some tinkering with so the Danley will have to wait!

 

Meanwhile, whenever I listen to my system, I know that it doesn't sound as "full" as my old setup (though it will TROUNCE the old system in volume and clarity)

[rplace]

20 minutes ago, Coytee said:

 

Maybe you prefer that softer, more plush sound of a direct/radiator than the horns?

 

 

To be clear I was perfectly happy with my Khorns. I'm just trying something different after 15+ years with them. That said, I love the detail, presentation and HUGE soundstage the Oris horn gives. I simply cannot use the khorn bass bin with them. I don't like the way they look or the height they put the horn in relation to my ears. I'm going to keep one pair or the other when I finally get the Oris dialed in and give the Khorns one more chance. I've got the active bug so Jubes can't be too far off.

 

So my parameters are something that goes lower than Belle/LS, not Khorn, no sub (for now). I like but don't love the 10" onken style cabinets (looks mostly iffy punch somewhat). DIY Cornwall bass bin is a possibility, but why not Forte II? If Forte II is a possibility are my steps in first post correct? This place loves to dance around the issue and never answer the original question . I love debates and discussion but some times just yes or no because of XYZ is all that is needed. How would one go about testing a Forte II as a bass bin only with a horn external to it?

[Coytee]

5 minutes ago, rplace said:

How would one go about testing a Forte II as a bass bin only with a horn external to it?

 

Well...  other than just doing it....  

 

Here's what I did.

 

Years ago, I got the Jubilee's.  I expected that I'd have a HT system and didn't want to buy another Jubilee.  I emailed Roy and asked, since the Jubilee was designed to cross higher than a Khorn.....and a LaScala already goes higher than a Khorn (bass bin), could a 402 be set on top of a LaScala bass bin and work as a 2-way??

 

He emailed me back saying something like "you are always coming up with a squirreley idea....  but.....  I don't see why it wouldn't work"

 

A year later, he unveiled that we're calling the JubeScala and he'd done all the chamber testing on it to make it a viable plug & play choice.

 

He might have a good idea of how to make your idea work (??)

 

Other than that, I'm going to dodge any original questions 

[rplace]

Who needs Roy when you have Chris . I'm just worried about breaking/frying something. I'm always unsure when it comes to the guts of things like speakers and amps/preamps. I like listening, not cutting wires and heating solder. But it seemed pretty simple since you can control the HF/LF at the Xilica. I know enough about that thing now to be dangerous. If I could just figure out enough about REW to have it tell me the PEQ settings I'd be happy for a while.

 

Stand by for pix. I did it without any of you......

[rplace]

Looks like it should work.

 

 

One down one to go. For sure better than Belle or 10" Onken. NOTE riser removed for better ear placement.

 

 

Looks pretty decent. Sounds good. So now OO Belle or WO Forte II quest?

 

[Shiva]

I like it.  Those speakers make your screen look small though.. You might need to go bigger for balance sake.😀  

[rplace]

1 minute ago, Shiva said:

I like it.  Those speakers make your screen look small though.. You might need to go bigger for balance sake.😀  

 

Thanks! I think the same thing when I look at pictures. The Khorns melted better into the corners and even though taller did not seem to make the screen look small. When the lights are off and the projector is on it has a very cinematic feel to it. Black front wall and ceiling make the room good for nothing but movies/music but that also adds to the cinema feel. I've been pretty happy with it over the years. If the Oris stay I might have to get a bass bin turned on its side and their smaller 250 horn, with same driver, under the screen.

[jjptkd]

Boy those horns make the Belle look small, bet they really sound good though. Looks like you got it handled just wanted to comment I love the forte II bass some of the best IMO from Klipsch right room and equipment positioning of course matter.

 

I think the reason Cornwall bass bins are opted for over the forte is probably sensitivity get an extra 2-3 db out of the larger woofer / cabinet also passive crossover design has been figured out and a lot simpler to work with but active that doesn't matter obviously.

 

   

[rplace]

9 hours ago, jjptkd said:

Boy those horns make the Belle look small, bet they really sound good though. Looks like you got it handled just wanted to comment I love the forte II bass some of the best IMO from Klipsch right room and equipment positioning of course matter.

 

I think the reason Cornwall bass bins are opted for over the forte is probably sensitivity get an extra 2-3 db out of the larger woofer / cabinet also passive crossover design has been figured out and a lot simpler to work with but active that doesn't matter obviously.

 

   

 

I was reading up a bit on how a passive speaker works. Looks like part of the tuning involves weight of the passive. I'm guessing this is like port length in a ported enclosure.

 

So maybe without a lab full of equipment and a team of engineers it is just easier from a DIY perspective to build a corn-like enclosure over a Forte-like one.

 

I've never looked for a replacement, but I seem to recall the Forte passive is hard to come by. 

 

What would be a reasonable substitute for that passive? Assuming you could round up the parts would you just build a box with the same internal volume, install the two speakers and let the active xo do the rest?

 

What about my 4 ohm vs 8 ohm question?

[moray james]

you can experiment with the tuning of your Forte ll passive tuning I like to use 2.5 ounces of dead weight added to the centre of the passive inside which will give you some additional bass extension (easy to change or remove if you want). You know you may simply like the sound of a twelve inch woofer better than a fifteen or a ten. Different size drivers do sound different and a twelve may just be what floats your boat best. There is a reason why so many bass players like the sound of a 4x10 cabinet. So find what you like and stick with it. Large two ways with big horns and large format drivers were popular in studios for a very long time and I have to say for me I like big fifteen inch two ways with large horns better than smaller drivers in a two way but given smaller horns and a higher crossover I like a ten or a pair of tens best.

[jjptkd]

I don't think the passive is a big obstacle because Klipsch has done the hard work if you are just copying same box size you can buy new passives directly from Klipsch from the forte III or you can go with a passive 12" as they are very common used on eBay. I personally don't think there was a huge difference between the 12 and 15 passives both have great bass and same rated response.