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AVR questions for a new HT build

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1 hour ago, IMWhizzle said:

 

Wow, informative post. Never knew this. I have the Marantz 7011 and am upgrading my setup with Atmos to 5.2.4. I own the Klipsch Reference Premiere line.

 

I never play at reference level, mostly with the master volume at -10dB max. Do you still recommend external amplification? And which amp do you recommend which is available in Europe?

 

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1 hour ago, IMWhizzle said:

 

Wow, informative post. Never knew this. I have the Marantz 7011 and am upgrading my setup with Atmos to 5.2.4. I own the Klipsch Reference Premiere line.

 

I never play at reference level, mostly with the master volume at -10dB max. Do you still recommend external amplification? And which amp do you recommend which is available in Europe?

 

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4 minutes ago, garyrc said:

 

 

I don't know what happened.  My new post shows up on my screen.  Here is a copy:

 

If you know that 0 dB = reference level in your set up because you have calibrated with Audyssey or some similar device, and you never exceed -10 dB, then you may not need an external amplifier because you will only need 10 watts with the speakers you are talking about (or 20 watts to build in a 3 dB safety factor).  An external amp might still give you some extra headroom, though

EDIT: I just looked over the info on your Marantz, and it will probably be fine.

 

I don't know current models.  I have 2005 NAD power amps, which I like.  If you are what we Americans call "rolling in money," you might want to look into McIntosh or Luxman ("the McIntosh of Japan").  The best sounding solid state amp I've ever had was a Luxman, but they are just too expensive now.

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I don't know what happened.  My new post shows up on my screen.  Here is a copy:
 
If you know that 0 dB = reference level in your set up because you have calibrated with Audyssey or some similar device, and you never exceed -10 dB, then you may not need an external amplifier because you will only need 10 watts with the speakers you are talking about (or 20 watts to build in a 3 dB safety factor).  An external amp might still give you some extra headroom, though
EDIT: I just looked over the info on your Marantz, and it will probably be fine.
 
I don't know current models.  I have 2005 NAD power amps, which I like.  If you are what we Americans call "rolling in money," you might want to look into McIntosh or Luxman ("the McIntosh of Japan").  The best sounding solid state amp I've ever had was a Luxman, but they are just too expensive now.

Thank you for this wonderful post. You gave more insight on the situation!

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If you don;t experiment in the danger zone of 0 db, you may not need an amp as Gary stated.  I for one, commonly crank things to 0 db on the avr. I use an external amp but, the BS and SS and center are powered by the amp.  My avr will swing around 270 watts at 4 ohms.  So, power for the front L and R is not an issue in a 43-4600 cu ft. room sitting about 18 ft. away.  The avr is on par with the separate power amp.

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It's not only about the power AVR \ amplifier provides but the quality of sound, ability to control the speakers to get the best out of it is also very important. Yes, you can usually sacrifice more when you watch movies compared to listening to stereo music, but still... the better amps are the better movies will sound, and all AVRs have entry level amplifiers only. Separate video processor with all external amps is the way to get the best sound, so the closer to this setup you are the better wound will be.

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5 hours ago, RAzZin said:

It's not only about the power AVR \ amplifier provides but the quality of sound, ability to control the speakers to get the best out of it is also very important. Yes, you can usually sacrifice more when you watch movies compared to listening to stereo music, but still... the better amps are the better movies will sound, and all AVRs have entry level amplifiers only. Separate video processor with all external amps is the way to get the best sound, so the closer to this setup you are the better wound will be.

You must not have experience with many top tier avr's.  The top Pioneer lines don't give up much to a power amp.  Pioneer will give you all channels driven.  I have used these avr's with 4 or 5 two hundred watt power amps, the only reason I need the power amp is for accessory speakers.  The Class D3 amps  are as clean as any power amp under $6000.  The connectivity is very nice which an amp does not have. The power supply and preamp are in separate compartments.  Avr's are not necessarily inferior to amp/preamp combo.  They are made by larger companies that have the power of comparative advantage.  This can allow them to deliver a comparable unit at way less than an amp/preamp combo with more options.  Never say always in audio.

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6 hours ago, RAzZin said:

It's not only about the power AVR \ amplifier provides but the quality of sound, ability to control the speakers to get the best out of it is also very important.

Fwiw, once the power requirements are met for the speaker to run efficiently you shouldn't be able to tell whether an AVR or separate amps are driving the system. IOW, adding more power isn't going to improve the sound unless you are under-powering the speakers in the first place. 

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Just take the case of an RF 7 with a sensitivity of 101.  One watt is 101 db, 10 watt is about 110 db.  Having 300 -400 watts is meaningless.  With some low sensitivity speakers, the story changes a bit as Zen Traveler said, woofer control should not be a problem if enough power is provided by an amp or avr.

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2 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

Having 300 -400 watts is meaningless.

Having 200w/channel is "meaningless" too, but I like it.:o:P;)

 

Bill

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2 minutes ago, willland said:

Having 200w/channel is "meaningless" too, but I like it.:o:P;)

 

Bill

Headroom with quality power is not meaningless.

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Just now, oldtimer said:

Headroom with quality power is not meaningless.

I am with you, hence the emojis and "meaningless" in quotations.

 

Love that headroom.

 

Bill

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3 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

Fwiw, once the power requirements are met for the speaker to run efficiently you shouldn't be able to tell whether an AVR or separate amps are driving the system. IOW, adding more power isn't going to improve the sound unless you are under-powering the speakers in the first place. 

An avr includes a pre-amp and an amp.  Quality power, once met, is one thing, but the quality of the separate pre-amp or included avr pre-amp will still make a difference.  So on the power side, you are correct, but it is not accurate to equate the pre-amp side.

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2 minutes ago, willland said:

I am with you, hence the emojis and "meaningless" in quotations.

 

Love that headroom.

 

Bill

Yeah, I know.  I was agreeing with you too.  Emojis however, are meaningless.

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3 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

So on the power side, you are correct, but it is not accurate to equate the pre-amp side.

When it comes to two-channel possibly but for Home Theater/Multi-channel music you get more bang for the buck out of a higher end AVR and you have amps to drive the speakers. {Note: I'm not sure what it costs for a quality Atmos pre-amp}

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10 minutes ago, oldtimer said:
13 minutes ago, willland said:

Having 200w/channel is "meaningless" too, but I like it.:o:P;)

 

Bill

Headroom with quality power is not meaningless.

I think he meant once you have the headroom anything above that is meaningless.

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Just now, Zen Traveler said:

When it comes to two-channel possibly but for Home Theater/Multi-channel music you get more bang for the buck out of a higher end AVR and you have amps to drive the speakers. {Note: I'm not sure what it costs for a quality Atmos pre-amp}

I disagree.  The pre-amp matters.  I didn't realize we were talking about bang for the buck though.  My response was based on a pure quality equation.

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4 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

I didn't realize we were talking about bang for the buck though.  My response was based on a pure quality equation.

The question for me would be the difference between processors between the two when it comes to what I'm hearing.  I know what a quality AVR costs but haven't priced comparable pre-amps but have heard they are at least 3 times as expensive even before you purchase the amps. Dunno for sure.

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