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AVR questions for a new HT build

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2 minutes ago, IMWhizzle said:

I notice that everyone has different opinions. I’ve decided not to add additional amps to my Marantz 7011.

Your choice of course but good quality outboard amplification has great "bang for the buck" factor on the used market.

 

Bill

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Well, I have 150 watts per channel RMS, using separate power amps, into Klipschorns and a Belle Klipsch center.  It is the equivalent of about 2,400 watts per channel into typical 90 dB/2.83v/8 Ohm speakers.  The headroom allows me to relax and not worry about it.

 

 

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There is a post in the tube amp section on how to see how much power you really need..  I commonly run the system all out and have never blew speaker.  I can't say the same for subs, lol. I don't have a problem with outboard amps, I have one.  I just don't recommend everyone needs them.  The question which systems benefit from them!

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15 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

You must not have experience with many top tier avr's.  The top Pioneer lines don't give up much to a power amp.  Pioneer will give you all channels driven.  I have used these avr's with 4 or 5 two hundred watt power amps, the only reason I need the power amp is for accessory speakers.  The Class D3 amps  are as clean as any power amp under $6000.  The connectivity is very nice which an amp does not have. The power supply and preamp are in separate compartments.  Avr's are not necessarily inferior to amp/preamp combo.  They are made by larger companies that have the power of comparative advantage.  This can allow them to deliver a comparable unit at way less than an amp/preamp combo with more options.  Never say always in audio.

 

Sorry, I went from Pioneer top line AVRs to higher quality solutions quite a long time ago (using Anthem MRX720 atm acting as processor only and going to switch to Arcam processor with Dirac Live soon). I don't like class D amps in any form, with exception of subwoofers where we don't have a choice. And yes, every separate amplifier I've added increased sound quality in movies.

 

Statement 1: all amplifiers sound different. 

Statement 2: a middle class preamp cost around 5000 USD. A middle class 2 channel power amp - about the same, so it's 10k USD for a strong middle level 2 channel amplification. And another ~5000 for 2ch DAC of the same level, so 15k total for 2 channels to get a strong good sound but nowhere close to top class audio products.

Statement 3: all top video products are made as AV processors, without amplifiers at all. No matter if that's Matanz, Yamaha, McIntosh, Arcam or some strong pro market product with 5 figures in price.

Statement 4: almost all top range amplifiers from top tier audio companies are made as monoblocks, with separate power for each channel - it's a proven way to get the best sound possible.

 

I doubt anyone will argue with 4 statements above. So, please think, with everything written above in mind, how a receiver with a retail of only 4000USD for not 2, but 11 channels - DAC, Pre and Pro for 11 channels - with all the power modules for preamp, dacs and amps in one body (and don't forget about video processing parts as well) - can in theory will be considered at least as good as separate amplification modules? It's not about power, power is maybe 20% of what makes a really good sound, these are simple things that are tested by thousands both in stereo and in multichannel video setups.

 

14 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

Fwiw, once the power requirements are met for the speaker to run efficiently you shouldn't be able to tell whether an AVR or separate amps are driving the system. IOW, adding more power isn't going to improve the sound unless you are under-powering the speakers in the first place. 

 

Please see above. I doubt you will argue that all amps in stereo sound different? Why do you say then that in video setups all amps sound the same?...

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12 hours ago, IMWhizzle said:

I notice that everyone has different opinions. I’ve decided not to add additional amps to my Marantz 7011.

 

Your Marantz 7011 is excellent and can easily drive all your Klipsch speakers.

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4 hours ago, RAzZin said:

 

Sorry, I went from Pioneer top line AVRs to higher quality solutions quite a long time ago (using Anthem MRX720 atm acting as processor only and going to switch to Arcam processor with Dirac Live soon). I don't like class D amps in any form, with exception of subwoofers where we don't have a choice. And yes, every separate amplifier I've added increased sound quality in movies.

 

Statement 1: all amplifiers sound different. 

Statement 2: a middle class preamp cost around 5000 USD. A middle class 2 channel power amp - about the same, so it's 10k USD for a strong middle level 2 channel amplification. And another ~5000 for 2ch DAC of the same level, so 15k total for 2 channels to get a strong good sound but nowhere close to top class audio products.

Statement 3: all top video products are made as AV processors, without amplifiers at all. No matter if that's Matanz, Yamaha, McIntosh, Arcam or some strong pro market product with 5 figures in price.

Statement 4: almost all top range amplifiers from top tier audio companies are made as monoblocks, with separate power for each channel - it's a proven way to get the best sound possible.

 

I doubt anyone will argue with 4 statements above. So, please think, with everything written above in mind, how a receiver with a retail of only 4000USD for not 2, but 11 channels - DAC, Pre and Pro for 11 channels - with all the power modules for preamp, dacs and amps in one body (and don't forget about video processing parts as well) - can in theory will be considered at least as good as separate amplification modules? It's not about power, power is maybe 20% of what makes a really good sound, these are simple things that are tested by thousands both in stereo and in multichannel video setups.

 

 

Please see above. I doubt you will argue that all amps in stereo sound different? Why do you say then that in video setups all amps sound the same?...

 

Like I said on the first page of this thread, the OP will need to make this decision on his own. Start with a quality receiver, add a couple powered subwoofers and if you feel you are lacking anything, add an external amplifier.

 

Too many people state facts, when discussing a subjective subject matter like sound and what sounds “best”. Many members here have gone with and without external amplification, like myself, and sometimes the difference in sound is negligible if there is even a difference at all. And yes, I am using a 7 channel amplifier with a Denon receiver at the moment currently. 

 

Just because some manufactures make $800 + speaker cables, doesn’t mean that you are going to hear a difference over a $20 speaker cable. Your brain will try to tell your ears that there is a difference in sound, in turn trying to justify your purchase but actual audible differences are a whole other story. 

 

I do do agree if you move way up the audio food-chain, a dedicated processor and amp combo would be the preferred route. I just don’t think adding a $4k amplifier to $2k speakers is going to make a “night and day” difference to the vast majority of people here. 

 

Try a quality receiver first, not happy, add an amp. 

 

 

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Many of these type post have a lot of generalizations.  There are no articles that I have read with science behind them stating that a speaker adequately power by and avr will be lifted to new heights by hooking it up to a power amp.  In General, more watts are better to have than less watts.  It is generally recommended to have twice the speaker RMS power.  Most of us with 200 or 250 watts speakers don't use amps that strong.  Why, speaker efficiency is a key part in the power needs of the system.  Subwoofers are use for the heavy lifting of the LF's in an HT using a XO at 80 Hz.  This will dramatically cut the other speakers power requirements.

 

The final decision will be for the OP.  He needs to know how loud he listens.

 

 

 

 
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Many of these type post have a lot of generalizations.  There are no articles that I have read with science behind them stating that a speaker adequately power by and avr will be lifted to new heights by hooking it up to a power amp.  In General, more watts are better to have than less watts.  It is generally recommended to have twice the RMS power.  Most of us with 200 or 250 watts speakers don't use amps that strong.  Why, speaker efficiency is a key part in the power needs of the system.  Subwoofers are use for the heavy lifting of the LF's in an HT XO at 80 Hz.  This will dramatically cout the other speakers power requirements.
 
The final decision will be for the OP.  He needs to known how loud he listens.
 
 
 
 

My thoughts exactly!

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On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:33 AM, RAzZin said:

 

I doubt anyone will argue with 4 statements above.

Sorry dude. There are several arguments that can be made and have through the years but welcome to the forum. :) Try to convince a new generation, but they have better cost alternatives than the folks from 20 years ago. {Note: Not to mention how much technology and the digital domain have changed things.}

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On 10/10/2018 at 11:16 AM, derrickdj1 said:

It is generally recommended to have twice the speaker RMS power.  Most of us with 200 or 250 watts speakers don't use amps that strong.  Why, speaker efficiency is a key part in the power needs of the system.

 

Agreed.  Efficiency (sensitivity) counts for a lot.  Power handling capacity, with "good" speakers does not, at least not in isolation.  Once someone asked PWK what manufacturers' Power Handling spec meant.  He replied, "Not much."

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one thing that I hope everyone can agree on is that heat ruins electronics.  I like having the amp separate from the preamp for this very reason. 

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