A/B Comparison with Cap Update

[Cody_Mack]

When doing updates/upgrades ( I know many don't like to use 'upgrade'), how do you set up the speakers to compare old vs. new; that is, replace caps in only one and compare the two? I would think side by side and send a mono signal one at a time. What say you?

 

Rick

[Panelhead]

  I do it the non-repeatable way. Play some tracks I like several times. Then perform the mods to both speakers. Then relisten. 

  If the change is not real evident it is a wash. It should be clear if it is better or worse. Wires, brands of caps, and resistors are all usually hard to honestly hear. At least to me.

  Items like changing oil caps to poly film caps, solid core versus stranded wire, and metal foil resistors vs sand cast are easier to differentiate. 

[jimjimbo]

I recently did a significant network change on my Khorns, and did a new vs old, right vs left, and as much as I didn't think it would matter....it did.

[Cody_Mack]

I did a cap change on my Heresys a few years back and got scolded for not doing A/B in between...Coulter are you there?..LOL

[wvu80]

The problem with doing the one-at-a-time change and playing both speakers in mono at the same time is that they interact and influence each other in the listening test.

 

The fact that Jim ^^^ could hear differences tells me the change in his XO's were significant and very different from one another.

[babadono]

Relying on "hearing memory" is a fool's game IMHO. If you "want" it to sound different/better it will. I'm talking about before  and after mods. Doing what JimJimbo did is more telling, again IMHO.

Now can you tell the difference between Heresy's and KHorns in the Klipsch demo room when they're being switched fairly quickly? Of course you can, otherwise we'd all have Bose

[Guest wdecho]

Hearing memory is very short. I have done a lot of X-over comparisons but no A/B ones. What I was interested in was how a new X-over sound after building listening to a song I was very familiar with. Did it sound good with nothing offensive. How is the soundstage, bass, mids, and highs. In other words, does it sound good. Caps do have a different sound but I do not think there is much difference in the inductor's used. Good 18 gauge inductors should all sound the same. The big pricey inductors are more of a show than any improvement in my humble opinion. Eye candy, along with those big extremely pricy capacitors. Ridiculous spending more on a X-over than many have spent for their used Klipsch speakers. There are plenty of reasonable priced caps and inductors to choose from that are excellent sounding. An inductor is just wire wound in a circle and a cap is nothing more than film separated by some type of material. Get real guys. Paper or plastic insulator what difference is it going to make if there is no leakage. Not rocket science if quality standards are upheld. Klipsch uses mylar capacitors in many of their crossovers which is a name brand for polyester. I prefer a polypropylene, more because it is the more modern one to use for most diy'ers since the price is now reasonable but I doubt there is much difference in the sound. In most of my X-overs I preferred I used motor run caps because the price is not to be beat for an excellent quality poly cap made for standards much higher than the audio market. The oil in them is used for cooling in high stressed environments which crossovers will never see. The oil in the old paper in oil caps was there to keep moisture from seeping into  the paper shorting out the cap when caps were not encapsulated. Not for any advantage in sound. Hardly a reason for the modern PIO caps that are sealed unless one wants to speculate on vibrations in the film. Nothing wrong with spending one's hard earned money for what one wants though but doubtful if there is going to be a real improvement over quality reasonably priced components. 

[jimjimbo]

8 hours ago, wvu80 said:

The problem with doing the one-at-a-time change and playing both speakers in mono at the same time is that they interact and influence each other in the listening test.

 

The fact that Jim ^^^ could hear differences tells me the change in his XO's were significant and very different from one another.

Well, I did go from Jantzen Superior Z caps (which are very good, but nicely priced) to Jupiter VT on the primary and Auricap PPT Thetas.  I shouldn't say I didn't expect to hear anything different, because I did expect that.  However, the delta was not night and day, but was modest.

[Budman]

2 hours ago, wdecho said:

Hearing memory is very short. I have done a lot of X-over comparisons but no A/B ones. What I was interested in was how a new X-over sound after building listening to a song I was very familiar with. Did it sound good with nothing offensive. How is the soundstage, bass, mids, and highs. In other words, does it sound good. Caps do have a different sound but I do not think there is much difference in the inductor's used. Good 18 gauge inductors should all sound the same. The big pricey inductors are more of a show than any improvement in my humble opinion. Eye candy, along with those big extremely pricy capacitors. Ridiculous spending more on a X-over than many have spent for their used Klipsch speakers. There are plenty of reasonable priced caps and inductors to choose from that are excellent sounding. An inductor is just wire wound in a circle and a cap is nothing more than film separated by some type of material. Get real guys. Paper or plastic insulator what difference is it going to make if there is no leakage. Not rocket science if quality standards are upheld. Klipsch uses mylar capacitors in many of their crossovers which is a name brand for polyester. I prefer a polypropylene, more because it is the more modern one to use for most diy'ers since the price is now reasonable but I doubt there is much difference in the sound. In most of my X-overs I preferred I used motor run caps because the price is not to be beat for an excellent quality poly cap made for standards much higher than the audio market. The oil in them is used for cooling in high stressed environments which crossovers will never see. The oil in the old paper in oil caps was there to keep moisture from seeping into  the paper shorting out the cap when caps were not encapsulated. Not for any advantage in sound. Hardly a reason for the modern PIO caps that are sealed unless one wants to speculate on vibrations in the film. Nothing wrong with spending one's hard earned money for what one wants though but doubtful if there is going to be a real improvement over quality reasonably priced components. 

@Deang

[Deang]

2 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Auricap PPT Thetas

AudioCap

[Cody_Mack]

Strictly talking about updating the caps...because they are old. My friend brought his Chorus IIs over and my first impression was graininess in the mids and highs....thought maybe cap "update" was in order. Bottom line, I guess if it doesn't sound worse, then at least you have the peace of mind on caps for another twenty years.

 

Dave, side by side and playing only one at a time, switching back and forth, is what I was suggesting.

 

Rick

[Deang]

I use a handful of recordings that I've been listening to since high school. When you're familiar with the material, even small changes jump out at you. In some cases, the overall change in presentation can be pretty dramatic. Of course, if you're just listening while conversing with friends or working around the house, you're not going to notice a difference.

 

These parts are built differently and measure differently. Audible changes should be expected. 

 

This place is great: Things that measure the same sound the same, and of course, things that measure differently also sound the same. Consistency thou art a jewel.

 

I think this topic has run its course around here. I'm content to just leave people in their mediocrity.