Do non electrolytic crossover caps really need replacing?

[carlthess40]

I have watched you guys post for years on the Klipsch fourm. And have learned a ton from all of you. Sorry to say, BUT this is getting childish from all parties involved and more so on a couple of you than the other
Now back to what this post is about

As I would like to know how and when to replace and test my caps in my crossovers and other audio gear

[CECAA850]

3 minutes ago, carlthess40 said:

As I would like to know how and when to replace and test my caps in my crossovers and other audio gear

One way is to wait for a failure and recap at that time.  That's what I did with my Carver amp.  Another is to replace them once they're 30+ years old.  To test them I believe you need an ESR meter.

[Dave1290]

[Travis In Austin]

On 10/2/2018 at 1:28 PM, moray james said:

Plastic caps generally last a very long time. So if you don't want to you don't need to replace them. That said if your caps are 20 or more years old then even if you replace them with new equally cheap caps the modern cheap caps will sound and perform better. If you replace them with modern good to above average quality caps you can expect a more pronounced improvement in performance. Your call to improve or not. You asking others what the improvement is like is pretty much a waste of time and if you want to get some kind of idea you would better spend your time doing an upgrade yourself on a simple network like a two way and listen for yourself.

Moray's post, not personal, and good practical advice

[Travis In Austin]

21 hours ago, wdecho said:

Moray James is correct. Most modern electrolytic caps are not oil filled anymore. Leakage has to do with how a electrolytic works and is made and it breaks down over time. Electrolytic caps have enabled everyone to have high capacitance caps are reasonable prices. Google electrolytic caps is you want to know the specifics of an electrolytic capacitor. They do break down over time but many times they last decades before going bad. Expected life expectancy in stressful power supply circuits is 15 years. The old Klipsch X-overs used oil filled film caps (motor run caps) that are oil filled to keep them cool in high current environments. Hardly a stressful environment in a X-over. If one has the equipment you can check ESR of film caps and the ones I have checked in old test equipment still tested per spec after decades of use. Film caps last much longer than many on this forum want to admit. If it sounds OK to you my advice is leave old film caps alone in X-overs. It is hit or miss whether you will like the sound after replacement. Caps do sound different and that is what most hear when they exclaim an improvement, not that there was anything wrong with the ones they replaced. 

This was good, nothing personal.

[Travis In Austin]

12 hours ago, Dave A said:

I have a good test meter and all the old oil filled caps I have measured may be OK for capacitance but the ESR is bad to very bad. Older film caps I have tested the vast majority have higher ESR than new production ones do. I have never regretted recapping crossovers and do so every time I get a set of speakers in to work on. I only work on things from say the mid 90's and older though.  Re-capping is the cheapest significant upgrade you can make on those Fortes if you can do it yourself and don't buy expensive caps.

Different point of view, there is nothing personal, lists what his experiences have been.

[Travis In Austin]

10 hours ago, wdecho said:

The opposite of what I have found. I just recapped an old HP distortion amplifier that some of the electrolytic caps had failed but the film caps tested fine after 40 or more years, capacitance and ESR. Not old oil filled motor run caps but film caps none the less. Nothing wrong with replacing capacitors in crossovers but I would advice saving the old ones in case you do not care for the outcome of replacement. Many do not. After replacing with one name brand one can then change to another brand of the same capacitance and if your hearing is good enough tell a difference in the sound between brands. By the way, most all the paper in oil film caps touted as superior on this forum have poor ESR numbers when new. Maybe the reason they are said to sound so good because of the extra attenuation of the mids or highs depending on which they are used on. Same as the old oil filled motor run caps touted as needing replacement by many here.

 

I do agree with Dave A about not wasting money on expensive capacitors thinking they will sound drastically better. They will not, only different in subtle ways. Same thing can be achieved with good reasonably priced brands. I see chasing better sound with boutique capacitors with those doing the same with expensive power cords or expensive speaker wires. If you have money to waste, go for it but I say use some plain old common sense when spending money. As my Dad use to say, money does not have eyes. 

This one was fine also, you are adamant that your experience leads you to an opposite conclusion.

 

The next post was from Dean, not a quote of any particular post, but pretty clearly in response to your post.

 

It was a one word post that essentially called what was in your post nonsense.  

 

Unfortunately you bit and started making it personal.

 

You should have just said "care to elaborate."

 

It is perfectly acceptable to disagree with what someone says, it is never acceptable to sink into something personal.  Here is a tip, if you mention someone's name in a post it is probably personal, if you quote someone's post it can be personal if you don't pay attention. 

 

Carl deleted Dean's post, which didn't really add to the conversation,  and yours which was clearly personal,  along with subsequent ones.

 

He was being pretty fair in my judgement. 

 

Take all of the personal stuff out and repost them.

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, wdecho said:

PM me my post you deleted and I will retract what you deem inappropriate and repost. Does not make sense to me to delete entire post when one sentence can be deemed offensive. But this is the Klipsch forum. 

Don't confuse Carl's patience and good nature with you as the moderators not being familar with your track record.  You have been warned before.

 

You have posted some great stuff over the years, but I have little tolerance for belittling people to make a point, or cheap jabs.  If you have something constructive to say on moderation, say it in a PM to one of us.

 

This is the point for you where saying less is more, and where you should be focusing on modifying your previous posts rather then trying to have the last word 

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, muel said:

I would add that it is probably a good idea to spend some time listening to the originals so you can hear what you are comparing. 

Yes for sure, if possible do one, and then the other.

 

Then report your progress.

[jimjimbo]

WOOOOO HOOOO!!   CAPACITOR WARS!!   AGAIN!

 

IS IT SNAKE OIL OR SCIENCE?  FACTS OR BULLSHIT?  FILM OR FOIL?  JUPITER OR AUDIOCAP?  PEANUT BUTTER OR JELLY?

 

WE MAY NEVER KNOW, BUT IT SURE IS FUN!!  PERSONAL ATTACKS, INSULTS AND POST DELETIONS.....HOW MUCH BETTER DOES IT GET?  

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

1 minute ago, jimjimbo said:

WOOOOO HOOOO!!   CAPACITOR WARS!!   AGAIN!

 

IS IT SNAKE OIL OR SCIENCE?  FACTS OR BULLSHIT?  FILM OR FOIL?  JUPITER OR AUDIOCAP?  PEANUT BUTTER OR JELLY?

 

WE MAY NEVER KNOW, BUT IT SURE IS FUN!!  PERSONAL ATTACKS, INSULTS AND POST DELETIONS.....HOW MUCH BETTER DOES IT GET?  

 

 

Actually it sank pretty low, but if you guys are in need of entertainment do you want me to set up a seperate thread so everyone  can relive it?

 

Because we are moving on so the OP can decide if he wants to take the dive or not.

 

 

[Deang]

47 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

“Most modern electrolytic caps are not oil filled anymore.”

 

There’s no such thing as an “oil filled electrolytic capacitor” - nor was there ever.

 

All types, including films, can/will experience dielectric breakdown and “leakage” over time. 

 

The oil in oil filled caps not only keeps them cool, but is used to protect the dielectric from moisture and air. 

 

After almost 20 years, I find this topic pretty boring, but it’s hard to take a pass when you see erroneous information. 

 

I apologize for the “BS” comment, I was just exasperated. 

[Travis In Austin]

1 minute ago, Deang said:

 

There’s no such thing as an “oil filled electrolytic capacitor” - nor was there ever.

 

All types, including films, can/will experience dielectric breakdown and “leakage” over time. 

 

The oil in oil filled caps not only keeps them cool, but is used to protect the dielectric from moisture and air. 

 

After almost 20 years, I find this topic pretty boring, but it’s hard to take a pass when you see erroneous information. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Deang said:

47 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

“Most modern electrolytic caps are not oil filled anymore.”

That somehow shows that it was a quote from me, but  I was quoting someone else in a post.

 

For the record, I didn't say that.  I'm not smart enough to know what an oil filled capacitor is, nor do I have the experience to know what is inside (except PCBs, I know a little about that).

 

Great example @Deang of how to respond to a factual statement without making it personal.

 

Now who wants to join a class action against Jensen?

 

[Deang]

13 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

That somehow shows that it was a quote from me, but  I was quoting someone else in a post.

@dwilawyer Yes, you quoted Wdecho. That’s just the way the forum’s “quote selection” feature works. 

[Deang]

20 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

 

Great example @Deang of how to respond to a factual statement without making it personal

 

I didn’t make it personal. I said “BS” to a post I disagreed with. We’ve been doing that around here for as long as I can remember, we even used to have an emoji for it. 

[jimjimbo]

2 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

Now who wants to join a class action against Jensen?

Huh?  Sorry, don't get it....

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

 

I didn’t make it personal. I said “BS” to a post I disagreed with. We’ve been doing that around here for as long as I can remember, we even used to have an emoji for it. 

Dean, read what I said. 

 

It was in response to your thoughts about oil filled caps, not two pages ago.

 

I wasn't being facetious. 

 

You responded the way a gentleman and a scholar would in your response about "no such thing as oil filled cap."  I agree, it wasn't personal.  I was just pointing it out so others could follow the example in that particular post.

 

Are you messing with me?

 

What am I missing?

[MEH Synergy]

OK let me break the Ice.  Snake oil and arguments aside, if I redo my Crossovers (which I Will soon), I will call dean and ask for his advice.   He will sell me what I can afford for my given budget.   This thread has gotten ridiculous.   So far astray from the original post.   Keep it focused.   

[Travis In Austin]

34 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Huh?  Sorry, don't get it....

Yes you do.

 

Jensen call their audio caps "paper in oil" and used to call them oil filled.  They claim their caps are better for high end audio.

 

http://jensencapacitors.com/products/audio-capacitors---aluminium-tube/silver-foil---paper-in-oil---pure-silver-leadout.aspx

 

I was being facetious about a class action, but it would be based upon people not getting quite the amount of oil they bargained for.

 

Yeah it was weak, so sue me.

 

Travis

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

1 minute ago, Westcoastdrums said:

OK let me break the Ice.  Snake oil and arguments aside, if I redo my Crossovers (which I Will soon), I will call dean and ask for his advice.   He will sell me what I can afford for my given budget.   This thread has gotten ridiculous.   So far astray from the original post.   Keep it focused.   

Where were you 4 hours ago when you could have been useful with that advice?