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Mark51

Do non electrolytic crossover caps really need replacing?

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LOL¬†ūüėĀ not mine, but when I looked at their website, it had $1000 there, most everything else I clicked on had red x's

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Mark51,

 

I had to chuckle about the doorbell wire!  Me too!  I went through what now seems like a pretty crazy wire experimentation phase about 20 years ago -- everything: doorbell, garbage disposal power cord, bunches of coax, bare silver, twisted pair fine transformer wire for ICs (excellent), low voltage landscaping, tons of stuff.

 

One of the things people should keep in mind about caps in x-overs, is that they see very, very small voltages, where a 50V cap is good for 100watts or more (approx.- forgot the exact spec when I was studying all of this in the late 80s, early 90s). When I see networks using 630V caps, it makes me wonder a bit.  Those big caps, particularly the PE and Teflon dielectric films, get really, really expensive, and that voltage rating is simply not necessary.  But that's just my opinion, as well as that of some other builders I know.  People should use what they feel best using.  Using less expensive plastics such as mylar or poly -p at such low voltages is ok (for me) because they do not suffer the same stresses as those seen in high-voltage applications.  I've used Illinois caps for old radios and other vintage equipment very successfully.  Again, just me, and am totally comfortable with it providing the working tolerance is met, and I'm using the correct amount capacitance.

 

I've always been much more interested in design and circuits (as I said before) than I am about the passive parts used in them -- which sure, can a do make a different.  My experience with spendy caps is that, yes, they can sound different, but my premise is that the difference may not always be for the better in a specific application

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I've tried up graded power cords... they do change the sound, just not always for the better.

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14 hours ago, Schu said:

I've tried up graded power cords... they do change the sound, just not always for the better.

All the AC power filters I've tried made stuff sound worse.  Plug your amp right into the wall and try reversing the polarity of the plug.  One way will sound better than the other.

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I know this is not a capacitor suggestion but I find something interesting with people who stop in to buy speakers from me. They can be obsessed with upgrades to this and that. They listen to my system and are in awe of it and I have to point out that the physical side of the equation is just part of it. We play a song which I then bring into Audacity and up the bit rate to 192k and normalize. The resulting definition most of the time is a big improvement and it's funny to see the look on their faces. Reasonably priced capacitors and since I can precisely measure them I know exactly what I am getting are all I will consider. Beyond that you flavor your music with electronics.

  I can buy an active crossover which works on anything cheaper than I can get a lot of fancy caps since they can easily go past $400 each for 4uf. Then flavor to taste with EQ.

 

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3 hours ago, Dave A said:

They listen to my system and are in awe of it

 

in awe of what ?  can you post your system.  2 channel 5 or 7 channel   what speakers are you using

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MCM 1900. Two channel run off my workstation with Realtec HI DEF audio upgrade and fed to my Crown xli800. Part of the secret sauce is using Audacity to improve the music I get my hands on. No DAC except whatever is in the audio card on the PC and no preamp. It is about as simple as you can get and the MCM's work off the original Klipsch crossover.

 

  The MCM's seem to have the ability to respond to Audacity imrovements better than any other set I have had here.

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This thread has the dubious distinction of running off one of the best among us, and then, almost in celebration for having done so, not contributing one iota toward anything worthwhile. Several pages now of discussing capacitors etc, all with purely SUBJECTIVE nonsense about what people perceive they hear when small changes are made. Not one "superior" set of ears or well-heeled pocket book testimony will bring wdecho back to this forum, and we are all the poorer for it.

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Nobody ran him off, he decided to leave. 

 

I almost left too. I mean, how am I supposed to survive in an environment where people use god-awful sounding amplifiers and coat hangers. 

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54 minutes ago, Deang said:

Nobody ran him off, he decided to leave. 

 

I almost left too. I mean, how am I supposed to survive in an environment where people use god-awful sounding amplifiers and coat hangers. 

 

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Yes and back to capacitors which bored people forgot was the reason for this thread. I dug into my MCM set and recapped just for the heck of it. The first crossover I had measured was in decent shape and so I never looked at the second one. The second one when I checked yesterday had problems and one of the 13uf mylars measured 7.45uf and .45 ESR. All of the caps in the second crossover had higher ESR then the first one did and I am not sure why but one thing I am sure of. This makes ALL the old crossovers sets I have measured now needing re-capping.

  I have to believe the manufacturing tolerances of today beat past ones and wonder if the higher ESR in general on older mylars was due to this.

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2 hours ago, ishwash said:

Several pages now of discussing capacitors etc, all with purely SUBJECTIVE nonsense about what people perceive they hear when small changes are made.

Please find a purely OBJECTIVE discussion of what people perceive they hear when small changes are made.  Good luck with that.

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32 minutes ago, carlthess40 said:

Yes he was run off
And it’s BS of how it happened

That's not accurate.  The mods collectively tried to get him to stay.  Believe what you want but you in no way have the entire story.  That's the last I'll say on the subject.

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If it wasn't for the subjective aspect, there would be no need for message boards. Most everything discussed on a message board involves impressions based on what is heard -- all opinion. Also discussed is how well something is built, how reliable it might be, etc., which I happen to believe also applies to passive components. I'm allowed to have that opinion.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

That's not accurate.  The mods collectively tried to get him to stay.  Believe what you want but you in no way have the entire story.  That's the last I'll say on the subject.

I‚Äôll say more. As moderators we are charged with enforcing the Terms of Service for all users of this forum. If a user/member¬†violates¬†the Terms of Service we are left no option but to warn the user. No one knows you‚Äôve been warned except @Chad¬†and the moderators. Through the years we have experienced a lot of personal insults towards members. We have a ZERO tolerance policy on that issue. The ugliness is uncalled for. If a member gets their feelings hurt because they have been warned for a Terms of Service Agreement violation and they choose to leave they¬†have the right to do so. The moderators here spend a lot of time mediating between members ‚Äúbehind closed doors‚ÄĚ in PMs to keep the BS off the forum.¬†

 

Nobody runs anybody off, you all have the right to choose for yourself. It’s regretful that some folks have no appreciation for how hard we actually work to keep members here. 

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49 minutes ago, Deang said:

If it wasn't for the subjective aspect, there would be no need for message boards. Most everything discussed on a message board involves impressions based on what is heard -- all opinion. Also discussed is how well something is built, how reliable it might be, etc., which I happen to believe also applies to passive components. I'm allowed to have that opinion.

 

 

Don't forget, there are a very FEW of us who also post CURVES and numbers, which, by nature are OBJECTIVE.

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1 minute ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Don't forget, there are a very FEW of us who also post CURVES and numbers, which, by nature are OBJECTIVE.

Yes, and then each person forms a subjective opinion of that objective data.  Do with it what you will.

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Just now, jimjimbo said:

Yes, and then each person forms a subjective opinion of that objective data.  Do with it what you will.

Certainement Monsieur! But it is then a secondary form and not a primary one, which is, by nature. Objective.

 

Dr. Irving Gardner via Paul W. Klipsch: "You can't make what you can't measure because you don't know when you have it made."

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In this thread, I posted a page by a manufacturer that explains why film and foil is objectively better than metallized. It's kind of obvious that not a single person read it. I also provided a couple of other links, which no one read. Over the years, I've also posted articles on how self-healing works, and why these capacitors might not be the best choice for high-sensitivity loudspeakers, since there will never be enough current to clear the flaws in the dielectric film -- the result of which is low level noise. I've explained the difference between a protected capacitor and an unprotected capacitor, and why a fully protected capacitor is preferred. Add to this the method in which leads are terminated, and how oxygen and moisture creep will effect ESR over time. All of this is objective data grounded in facts. However, since all of this requires a bit of reading, some thinking, and a willingness to spend $20 - $50 on a high quality part, we will instead call it "subjective nonsense", "flooby dust", "a waste of money", etc.

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