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402 horn from KPT-305 midbass blended with Khorn bass bin


Delicious2

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42 minutes ago, Chris A said:

So what's the plans with the Peavey bass cabinets?

Hey Chris.  They're too ugly for the living room probably. I have to draw the line somewhere 😀.  Was thinking to try them in the HT with a new set of K402s that are arriving tomorrow.  I just opened them up and luckily didn't find any critter nests, etc.  Somebody put Klipsch 4 ohm drivers in them at some point but neglected to seal one back up properly.  Overall they appear whole despite their 1978 vintage.

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  • Delicious2 changed the title to 402 horn from KPT-305 midbass blended with Khorn bass bin
  • 3 weeks later...

I'm reviving this thread since I now have the TAD 4002s on the new (to me) K402s with stands on top of the Khorn bass bins.  I've gone through 2 iterations of REW measurement and Chris' tuning with excellent results.  Just as a reminder the chain is -

 

  • sources: Oppo 103D, Sony HD FM tuner (modded), MacPro usb via AudioQuest DragonFly 1.1,  Basis 1200 TT with Sumiko MMT arm and BenzMicro cart, phono preamp is on an old Parasound preamp (Oppo is the main HiRez source)
  • preamp: NuForce AVP-16, 7.1 analog in from Oppo
  • Digital Xover: Xilica 4080
  • Amps: VTL TT-25s on the bass and First Watt SIT2 on the tweets
  • cable - whatever cheap interconnects I have lying around or what came with the equipment, spkr wire - zip cord.
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On 10/4/2018 at 11:30 AM, Chris A said:

By the way, that's much better phase performance than "brand x" multiple entry horns...:wink:  You should get the same uncanny smoothness, clarity, and accuracy as brand X and have a full 90 degrees of coverage from 31 Hz to 20 kHz.  This is certainly something to hear.

 

Chris

Is it fair to say that "brand x" (D?) did it first, and passively?? Just sayin/askin'

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Yes--it's really amazing to see the measurements of brand "X" with only a passive crossover. 

 

However, it took TD probably 5-7 years (or more) to finally get that passive crossover dialed in...while it takes minutes to do it using a DSP crossover.  This is one of the reasons why I don't understand why the patent (US8284976) didn't claim its crossover design.  There was a lot of work that went into that network--much more than apparently any other loudspeaker that I've seen, heard and/or measured. 

 

At any rate, the DSP crossover implementation has superior phase/group delay/SPL flatness performance--once you figure out what's really occurring with the passive network.

 

Chris

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I like to live with component, configuration, settings changes for a while before commenting since I find that sometimes any change that's not grossly wrong can seem better at first.  After a week of daily listening both casual background classical HD FM and focused test tracks disks in the Oppo, some impressions are forming.

  • Bass in this room has never been better.  It is more powerful than before but not boomy at all.  Kick drum, electric bass, string bass, toms, tympani, low brass, synth bass all benefit from this tune. (gotta try some pipe organ).  There is a tactile and tuneful quality to bass that was missing.  The greater power vibrates the room and surfaces more in a satisfying way akin to live music/bass.
  • When I first turned on the system this morning there was some moderately complex but not loud classical music broadcast.  My impression was of a coherence that the system hadn't had before.  It spoke with one voice.  Although the system was cold, hearing it was immediately pleasurable.
  •  I think I like the highs of the TADs more than the BMS, not sure yet or why.
  • I was worried that going active digital DSP would have one or more down sides - noise, artificial sound,  opacity due to more D/A, A/D conversions, loss of life or air etc.  None of that has been true.   The only down side to the dsp so far is the same effect I have with the aftermarket full dsp system in my car (Mosconi Aerospace 8-12).  There is an audible latency and volume changes associated. IOW, when the disk or stream starts the next track it may miss a few notes or start soft then come up to full volume after a second or so.
  • I was taught early on in my life-long audiophile hobby that the minimalist/purist approach was best.  This has fit right in with many years not having much cash to spend 😁  I'm now starting to think that there are macro factors to get right about a home reproduction system and there are micro factors.  I've been fooling with the micro factors much of my career without getting some macro factors right until now.  It is a revelation and very enjoyable!

K402 with stand TAD 4002 Khorn front.jpg

K402 with stand TAD 4002 Khorn.jpg

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Personally,  I think we should chisel that last one into granite and hang in a conspicuous place around here somewhere. 

 

Note to the uninitiated: Mark has just converted his Khorns into top-notch Khorn/Jubilee hybrids.  I wish that I lived closer so that I could perhaps hear them.  I bet they sound gooood...the way that PWK originally intended the "Klipschorn II" to sound when he started on his last loudspeaker development.  Here's to Paul: 🍾

 

Chris

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/20/2018 at 1:28 PM, Chris A said:

Yes--it's really amazing to see the measurements of brand "X" with only a passive crossover. 

 

However, it took TD probably 5-7 years (or more) to finally get that passive crossover dialed in...while it takes minutes to do it using a DSP crossover.  This is one of the reasons why I don't understand why the patent (US8284976) didn't claim its crossover design.  There was a lot of work that went into that network--much more than apparently any other loudspeaker that I've seen, heard and/or measured. 

 

At any rate, the DSP crossover implementation has superior phase/group delay/SPL flatness performance--once you figure out what's really occurring with the passive network.

 

Chris

FYI, Mr. Brand X told me he uses LSP CAD to do his networks, which is an $800 investment........not for the squeamish.

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On 11/20/2018 at 1:54 PM, Delicious2 said:

There is an audible latency and volume changes associated. IOW, when the disk or stream starts the next track it may miss a few notes or start soft then come up to full volume after a second or so.

Very interesting. I thought latency was just a time delay for the signal to get through the A/D--->DSP---->D/A process. But you say notes are missing? 

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On 11/20/2018 at 11:04 AM, Delicious2 said:

cable - whatever cheap interconnects I have lying around or what came with the equipment, spkr wire - zip cord.

Pause for breath sucking noises and cries of sacrilege.

 

12 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

FYI, Mr. Brand X told me he uses LSP CAD to do his networks, which is an $800 investment........not for the squeamish.

That doesn't even cover yearly renewal for good CAD design programs much less buying it to begin with.

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This is a muting function of the Xilicas to kill quiescent DSP noise--coming out of mute.  The mute-off cycle has a ramp-up period that is probably in the 0.4-0.5 second range so that you don't get an immediate "pop" once the unit comes out of muting if you accidentally short an input terminal--thus saving your loudspeaker drivers from a nasty transient.

 

Since this has never bothered me (i.e., understanding what that feature is doing as a fail-safe), I've never really thought about it.  I can say that the Xilica is dead quiet quiescently because of that feature, and is much quieter than the Yamaha SP2060 and even the Dx38 in that regard.

 

Chris

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On 12/3/2018 at 2:11 AM, parlophone1 said:

Glad to see the things are well, always wondered how would K402s sound with Khorn bas bins.👍

Rigma did this temporarily about 10 years ago before he got about 9 Jubilee bass bins for his Home Theater.

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18 minutes ago, Chris A said:

This is a muting function of the Xilicas to kill quiescent DSP noise--coming out of mute.  The mute-off cycle has a ramp-up period that is probably in the 0.4-0.5 second range so that you don't get an immediate "pop" once the unit comes out of muting if you accidentally short an input terminal--thus saving your loudspeaker drivers from a nasty transient.

 

Since this has never bothered me (i.e., understanding what that feature is doing as a fail-safe), I've never really thought about it.  I can say that the Xilica is dead quiet quiescently because of that feature, and is much quieter than the Yamaha SP2060 and even the Dx38 in that regard.

 

Chris

Yes indeed, you have a really really good signal to noise ratio at the when you temporarily turn off the unit. No signal and no noise. LOL. Lots of devices do that "ramp up" thing.

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4 hours ago, Dave A said:

Pause for breath sucking noises and cries of sacrilege.

 

That doesn't even cover yearly renewal for good CAD design programs much less buying it to begin with.

Yes indeed. You can also get free crossover design programs, but if yo do it for a living, you want to make sure it's serious software and not stuff for hobbies where there are no negative million dollar consequences for being wrong or incomplete.

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