Jump to content

402 horn from KPT-305 midbass blended with Khorn bass bin


Delicious2

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, glens said:

Appears to be mixing in a little of the other input channel (each way?), closing down the spread.

That's right glens.  I'm mixing in some of the other input channel on each one.  Closing down the spread is one way of describing it.  I'm attempting to get a stronger center image without using an actual center speaker.  I'm still listening as to how successful this method is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/20/2018 at 3:54 PM, Delicious2 said:

I was taught early on in my life-long audiophile hobby that the minimalist/purist approach was best.  This has fit right in with many years not having much cash to spend 😁  I'm now starting to think that there are macro factors to get right about a home reproduction system and there are micro factors.  I've been fooling with the micro factors much of my career without getting some macro factors right until now.  It is a revelation and very enjoyable!

 I was not taught this but I believe it and the more complexity you can eliminate the better off you are. As I finish up the S-MWM's this coming week I have to use a xilica for time alignment and have to enter into the world of more to get the good sound I seek and read about. Being a minimalist can mean you miss some things you felt were not necessary and this journey of yours is of interest to me. You don't know what you don't know and each step up is an eye opener.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

That's right glens.  I'm mixing in some of the other input channel on each one.  Closing down the spread is one way of describing it.  I'm attempting to get a stronger center image without using an actual center speaker.  I'm still listening as to how successful this method is.

 

I believe you will ultimately find that you can’t fill in the center image by this method since the real cause is to large of a physical ratio difference between loudspeaker spread versus loudspeaker/listener distance.

 

I have had great results when I couldn’t place a center channel between a wide Klipschorn spread (22ft) by using a pair of spaced (approximately 6ft) Belles fed the same stereo signal and adjusting there SPL level until the blend was seamless with excellent center imaging. I actually preferred this arrangement over a single center Belle in this room because the rooms modal response was smoother by this arrangement.

 

mkketn

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

Now much closer to ear height losing about 10" from 57" down to 47".

Modded K402 Mount Front.jpg

This also works with Jubilees, reducing the centerline height above floor of the K-402 to ~46-47 inches, i.e., much closer to the standard used for ITU surround sound arrays (i.e., 1.2m = 47 inches, as shown in the figure below). 

 

ITU-R-BS-775-1.png

 

I've been using essentially the same configuration for a couple of months now.  It gets the center channel K-402-MEH within an inch of height above floor as the K-402s on top of the Jubs on either side.  The increase in surround sound performance has been fairly spectacular just with this very simple height adjustment and readjusting the time delays on the Xilica to compensate.  The step and group delay performance of the Jubs also got a lot better...

 

Shortened Jub front small.jpg

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

That's right glens.  I'm mixing in some of the other input channel on each one.  Closing down the spread is one way of describing it.  I'm attempting to get a stronger center image without using an actual center speaker.  I'm still listening as to how successful this method is.

Yep, that's one use of a pan control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

I have had great results when I couldn’t place a center channel between a wide Klipschorn spread (22ft) by using a pair of spaced (approximately 6ft) Belles fed the same stereo signal and adjusting there SPL level until the blend was seamless with excellent center imaging. I actually preferred this arrangement over a single center Belle in this room because the rooms modal response was smoother by this arrangement.

Mike, did you have control of the relative channel delays when doing this (i.e., corner Khorns vs. center Belle vs. a pair of intermediate-located Belles)? 

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

That's right glens.  I'm mixing in some of the other input channel on each one.  Closing down the spread is one way of describing it.  I'm attempting to get a stronger center image without using an actual center speaker.  I'm still listening as to how successful this method is.

 

Take it right to the extreme (1L+1R to both L and R) and see if it provides a uniform soundstage.  If it does so under that condition then you'll know your mixing is doing what you want to get done as opposed to just making it sound different.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Dave A said:

 I was not taught this but I believe it and the more complexity you can eliminate the better off you are. As I finish up the S-MWM's this coming week I have to use a xilica for time alignment and have to enter into the world of more to get the good sound I seek and read about. Being a minimalist can mean you miss some things you felt were not necessary and this journey of yours is of interest to me. You don't know what you don't know and each step up is an eye opener.

Yes, thanks for making that connection Dave.  Entering into the "world of more" that is - a more complex signal chain wasn't intuitive for me, but, I now realize it was necessary and helped get rid of that "lusting after the giant killer of the month" syndrome.  Going active these past months has opened up a new level of learning about my system and small room acoustics.  I finally have the tools and  am beginning to gain the knowledge to tune my whole system.

You were there for me when I began this Klipsch chapter of my journey with your excellent eliptrac horn mod for my Khorns.  Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Chris A said:

This also works with Jubilees, reducing the centerline height above floor of the K-402 to ~46-47 inches, i.e., much closer to the standard used for ITU surround sound arrays (i.e., 1.2m = 47 inches, as shown in the figure below). 

 

ITU-R-BS-775-1.png

 

I've been using essentially the same configuration for a couple of months now.  It gets the center channel K-402-MEH within an inch of height above floor as the K-402s on top of the Jubs on either side.  The increase in surround sound performance has been fairly spectacular just with this very simple height adjustment and readjusting the time delays on the Xilica to compensate.  The step and group delay performance of the Jubs also got a lot better...

 

Shortened Jub front small.jpg

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

LOL, Seems I'm following the trail you've already blazed whether I know it or not Chris!  How did you lower the K402 on the Jub?  Let's see the back side there...

Is there a ballpark delay I can plugin to compensate or should I just measure in REW again?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, glens said:

 

Take it right to the extreme (1L+1R to both L and R) and see if it provides a uniform soundstage.  If it does so under that condition then you'll know your mixing is doing what you want to get done as opposed to just making it sound different.

"provides a uniform soundstage" - please elaborate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The added delay for mine...the K-402 horn sticks out in front 7.75 inches...is 0.515 ms. I wanted to get the K-402s out in front a little bit further than you apparently did.  Mine benefited from the lower level of near field reflections by moving them a bit farther forward.

 

Take your K-402 horn offset distance in inches and divide by 13584 (in/sec) as a common value for speed of sound constant (i.e., 1132 ft/sec).  Add that value to the delay of the HF channels.

 

A poor picture of how I did it (dust, bricks and other detritus).  Remember that my K-402 is a 25 lb. horn, i.e., not the 15 lb. version that you own. 

 

Shortened Jub side small.jpg

 

Chris

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

Mike, did you have control of the relative channel delays when doing this (i.e., corner Khorns vs. center Belle vs. a pair of intermediate-located Belles)? 

 

Chris

 

Hey Chris 

 

No this was well before DSP units were easily available to make delay adjustments to individual channels.

 

miketn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike.

 

One interesting experience that I had a couple of months ago when I shortened down the Jub K-402s and added the AMT-1s on top of the surround Cornwalls (turning them into 2-ways by adding an old Dx38 from storage) was an apparent "room mode issue" whereby I could walk along just behind the  listening chairs and hear subjective soundstage image "jumping"--like stereo does when you lean left and right in a fairly live room. 

 

Once I reran Audyssey to set only the relative channel delays (which Audyssey actually does well), the magic of an uninterrupted soundstage image reappeared in listening while walking across the room--side wall to side wall.  In fact the effect was much more apparent with all the surrounding loudspeakers now within a narrower vertical angle (i.e., HF drivers now much closer to the same distance off the floor).  I was amazed at how little correction in relative delays per channel made that much difference. 

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/20/2019 at 3:47 PM, Chris A said:

The added delay for mine...the K-402 horn sticks out in front 7.75 inches...is 0.515 ms. I wanted to get the K-402s out in front a little bit further than you apparently did.  Mine benefited from the lower level of near field reflections by moving them a bit farther forward.

 

Take your K-402 horn offset distance in inches and divide by 13584 (in/sec) as a common value for speed of sound constant (i.e., 1132 ft/sec).  Add that value to the delay of the HF channels.

 

A poor picture of how I did it (dust, bricks and other detritus).  Remember that my K-402 is a 25 lb. horn, i.e., not the 15 lb. version that you own. 

 

Shortened Jub side small.jpg

 

Chris

 

Hmmm,  7.75 divided by 13584 is about .00057 not .000515.  Are you fine tuning  based on the REW measurement?  By ear?  So as a starting point my 3.5 inch protrusion would add about .000257 or about .26 ms, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I quoted the delay for 7 inches of offset--not 7.75 inches.   The correct value is 570 µs. 

 

Since I didn't actually determine the correct delay using that approach--I instead looked at both the group delay [GD] and spectrogram plots to see what the total delay value should be, I thereby avoided making that particular keying error in the setup...:wink:.  

 

Then I ran another sweep to verify that the settings were correct...and then...I do some perturbations around the delay value and look at the resulting phase and group delay plots (since they are the most sensitive to delay errors), and compare them in order to pick with one with the minimum phase growth and group delay. 

 

You can learn a lot by doing that particular approach.  As it turns out, finding the correct delay values is somewhat of an art rather than a simple calculation.  When using the type of filters available on most DSP crossovers (i.e., IIR filters, or "infinite impulse response" filters), there's always some sort of tradeoff that you can make, it seems.  (If I were using FIR filters, a.k.a., "linear phase filters", there is no tradeoff--you simply dial it in and then grab your output file of numbers [taps], then plug that into the FIR filter engine in a FIR-filter DSP crossover.  Voila! Instant zero phase and amplitude in one try!)

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...