402 horn from KPT-305 midbass blended with Khorn bass bin

[Delicious2]

On 1/20/2019 at 7:04 PM, Chris A said:

Thanks Mike.

 

One interesting experience that I had a couple of months ago when I shortened down the Jub K-402s and added the AMT-1s on top of the surround Cornwalls (turning them into 2-ways by adding an old Dx38 from storage) was an apparent "room mode issue" whereby I could walk along just behind the  listening chairs and hear subjective soundstage image "jumping"--like stereo does when you lean left and right in a fairly live room. 

 

Once I reran Audyssey to set only the relative channel delays (which Audyssey actually does well), the magic of an uninterrupted soundstage image reappeared in listening while walking across the room--side wall to side wall.  In fact the effect was much more apparent with all the surrounding loudspeakers now within a narrower vertical angle (i.e., HF drivers now much closer to the same distance off the floor).  I was amazed at how little correction in relative delays per channel made that much difference. 

 

Chris

 

Fascinating.  I wonder why a change in speaker height would interrupt that effect never mind be remedied by relative channel delays?  I"m such a newbie when it comes to small room acoustics...

Next step for me since I MUST have "the magic of uninterrupted soundstage" is probably to get more of the big furniture out of the living room (couch and roll top desk) making the space more symmetrical and with less big objects between speaker pairs both on side walls as it is on front wall.

With my old NuForce pre-pro I have nothing like Audyssey so I'm just getting in the ballpark with its speaker setup  distance settings.  I could bring the new Anthem AVM 60 up from the HT to see how its room correction might help with the relative channel delays.

[Chris A]

Well I added a Dx38 to the system, which has a different insertion delay than the Xilica XP-8080, and I had to reset the apparent distances due to the Cornwall time alignment and Jub K-402 shortening down.  Additionally, the height of the Jubs are now aligned with the center MEH and the surround AMT-1/Cornwall (later shifting to Belle bass bins) changed the relative spacing ever to so little, but enough to cause issues.

 

I found just how close you need to be once you begin to get all the loudspeakers dialed in, positioned at the same height, and extraneous near-field reflections controlled. It was pretty startling how much difference there was, and how this changed my subconscious willingness to sit through full albums of a wider selection of music track genres spontaneously.

 

That last statement is of course a subject of some interest and is in ways somewhat resistant to things like A-B testing of components, etc.  For me, it's a function of how you've handled the room acoustics, loudspeaker performance (including dialing them in with driver time delays and crossover filter parameters), their physical alignment laterally, and time alignment of each channel relative to the others.

 

Chris

[ClaudeJ1]

On 1/22/2019 at 12:17 PM, Chris A said:

That last statement is of course a subject of some interest and is in ways somewhat resistant to things like A-B testing of components, etc.  For me, it's a function of how you've handled the room acoustics, loudspeaker performance (including dialing them in with driver time delays and crossover filter parameters), their physical alignment laterally, and time alignment of each channel relative to the others.

 

Chris

IOW, it's a complicated mess to sort out and not for the squeamish!

 

[Born2RockU]

WELL family,

      Today, I am officially entering into the setup process of getting all 5 of my K-402 setup for my 5.1 JUBILEE system.

                      (Jubilee L/C/R 's ... with KHorn Bass Bin/K-402 Tops for surrounds)

 

I have TWO Xilica XP_4080's , along with using a Marantz AV7703 in Pure Direct mode for my ANALOG out from my Pioneer Elite DVD-Audio player.

 

I am sure I will have plenty of questions coming atcha all, soon.

 

Pics will follow, after everything is in place.

      (The pic below is before the KHorn/K-402's have been brought into the room )

 

The saddest thing was getting ALL of these cabinets upstairs into my Jube Room. 

The Happiest thing is, they are all up there now !

 

Let the 'fun begin' !

 

~Craig LeMay .

[Born2RockU]

-Feb.15th, 2019 (7am CST)

 

Hello FAMILY,

   My question #1 pertains to my 5.1 SURROUND BASS BIN's, ...using the mighty KHorn bass bins. 

    (I haven't finished setting them up in their 110-degree corner-wall positions, ....so no testing has occurred, yet.)

 

According to what CHRIS has mentioned previously, I believe that the KHorn bass bins slope dramatically at around 400hz.

           {  I have all my L/C/R Jubilee K-402's crossed at 450hz, so I either need to get those KHorn bass up to that desired 450hz point,

                    or, I must be forced to X-Over my K-402 Faital Pro HF20AT Compression Drivers much lower, to the KHorn's 'drop point'. }

 

QUESTIONs:

•   Is it possible to raise the KHorn Bass Bins up to 450hz , when properly placed in perfect corners ?

  And, should I HARDWIRE them directly to their respectful speaker posts, bypassing their CROSSOVER network,

                           ...since I will be using XILICA DSPs for all the 5.1 crossover/tuning /time alignment duties ?                 

 

   Thank you everyone, in advance for helping.

Those surround KHorn/K-402 Surrounds should be fully setup before today's end.

 

~Rock On ,

             Craig LeMay

            281-469-1111

    Born2Rock@Comcast.net

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, Born2RockU said:

•   Is it possible to raise the KHorn Bass Bins up to 450hz , when properly placed in perfect corners ?

Yes, in fact that's about where Mark's Khorns are crossed wrt the K-402s.  The part about sealing them in the room corners is probably pretty important, but you can ask Mark (Delicious2) how well he seals his in the corners.

 

1 hour ago, Born2RockU said:

And, should I HARDWIRE them directly to their respectful speaker posts, bypassing their CROSSOVER network since I will be using XILICA DSPs for all the 5.1 crossover/tuning /time alignment duties ?     

Yes.  No passive crossover circuits are required, or desired.  Direct coupling is preferred--your amplifiers and woofers will thank you for getting the reactive elements out of the main power loop.

 

Chris

[Born2RockU]

Thank You so much, brotha Chris ;  ...especially for the speedy reply.

 

My KHorn bass bins are sealed 'SQUEEKY TIGHT' in their PERFECT corners,

    ...and are ready for their partnered K-402's   5.1 SURROUND  duties !

 

I will be using 10 MONO BLOCKS for those 5 JUBILEE banks ! ...and a Crown VZ-3600 for the Danley TH-50 Sub duties !

 

Chris, Thank You so so much ; ...you have been a huge inspiration and mentor to me.

{ ... if you are EVERY in the N.W. Houston area, please come visit ;  ...my House is yours. }

 

~Rock On , 

                   Craig

[MEH Synergy]

8 minutes ago, Born2RockU said:

My KHorn bass bins are sealed 'SQUEEKY TIGHT' in their PERFECT corners,

    ...and are ready for their partnered K-402's   5.1 SURROUND  duties !

 

I will be using 10 MONO BLOCKS for those 5 JUBILEE banks ! ...and a Crown VZ-3600 for the Danley TH-50 Sub duties !

Awesome setup man, congrats. Keep us posted on how things come along. 

[Delicious2]

I don't have mine especially tight in corners.  Just added foam pipe insulation to improve it.  You're in for a treat Craig!  You inspire me to find a way to get a big horn center and surrounds.

[Born2RockU]

HOLT SHI* !!!!

These sealed corners ROCK.  

 

Pics of today's install ...

[Born2RockU]

Notice the Klipsch Metallic COPPER theme on the Back wall...and Smokey Grey for side walls.

 

Fun, fun , FUN !

 

I constructed a WIDER top for the KHorn Bass Bin...

 

And added an PAINTED insert for sealing the window passage, ...to guarantee a Perfect flow for the mighty KHorns Bass frequencies.

 

 

Then DRILLED two bolt holes on tops, to secure to the NEW top to the original Squawker/Tweeter 'L' mounting brackets.

 

Here is the Back wall mounting side...

 

 

And the Side wall mounting side BOLTING area.

 

 

 

 

 

[Born2RockU]

Then added the mighty K-402 spice , to the package !

 

All I need now is to build GRILLS to solidify the SURROUND's appearance.

 

 

TOUCHDOWN !!!!!!

*Tomorrow's events ? 

       ...adding the 4 Mono blocks for these BiAmp'd Surround speaker banks,

              ...and then begin formatting TWO XILICA XP-4080's for 5.1 DVD-Audio ! 

                           (  = 11 OUTPUTS , including the Danley TH50 Sub !)

 

~Rock On ,

             Craig

        281-469-1111

Born2Rock@Comcast.net

[glens]

Next project will be to rip all those CDs to flac, store them somewhere else, and serve the music at a whim.

[Born2RockU]

8 hours ago, glens said:

Next project will be to rip all those CDs to flac, store them somewhere else, and serve the music at a whim.

Glens, 

  What did you you use to burn CD's to FLAC (especially the MultiChannel DVD-Audio and SACD's) ,  and what are you using to Playback them ?

[glens]

I've only got CD audio, no higher bitrate discs.  I investigated some of the several graphical interface options that came with my Ubuntu installation.

 

I'm less a fan of graphical interfaces for some tasks, and entering "corrected" information for the track tags proved too tedious "graphically".  I wanted to do the tags (and album/file naming and hierarchy) in a particular and consistent way so opted to use the command line bash script "abcde".  I integrated it into a script of my own which at the appropriate time offers me a text file containing the tag information for the entire disc, open in my favored editor "vi" which allows utter simplicity in doing global search/replace, etc.

 

I also opted for an encoding library which detects pre-emphasis (Red Book) in the sub-channels and applies de-emphasis automatically.  When used it can be inconsistent, sometimes indicated in the disc's TOC and sometimes not.  Most all dedicated players get it right but most all computer-based rippers don't.

 

My rock discs were pretty easily done but my early music discs, many of which are obscure thus required complete data entry as opposed to simpler modification only, proved very time-consuming.  All-in over several hundred each type took me a month or two, but was WELL worth the effort.

 

One thing I "disc"overed is that CDs are not necessarily an "archive quality" medium.  Several proved to succumb to reflective surface rot and a few to "dishing" or "cupping" in such a way that made complete (sometimes any) ripping (or even playing in a dedicated player) impossible.

 

I'm serving the flac files via (primarily) "minidlna" running on my laptop via various control points (primarily "hifi cast" on android) to my NAD C338 driving a Forte III pair, which system performs double duty for music and TV.

 

I've always been more of a closet audiophile, just making the best of things on a more realistic budget, as well as going for years at times with nothing.  But I may have to "come out", sell a Harley, and equip myself with a pair of Jubilees while I still can afford and appreciate it.

[Born2RockU]

Hey guys,

•       What is the "Length" of wave signal, exiting the KHorn Bass Bin ?

I obviously need that KHorn LF Bass bin's wave distance -vs- the K-402 HF Horn, 

         ...for time alignment calculation purpose ?

 

....or, should I just trust Audyssey to do the alignment magic ?

If so , is there a optimal mic calibration placement, that I should consider besides the usual listening position ?

 

        (  I did see Chris and Mark have moved their K-402's forward, and lowering them in relationship to their LF bins. 

          Mine will not be lowered, and the K-402's lip will remain center-aligned with the flush front of the KHorn LF. )

 

Again, thank you for any help you may be able to offer me, in this early phase of setting up my 5.1 Surrounds.

 

~Rock On , 

               Craig

[Chris A]

26 minutes ago, Born2RockU said:

      What is the "Length" of wave signal, exiting the KHorn Bass Bin ?

In Houston (where the average indoor temperature year-round is probably 72-74° F or 22.2° C)...the formula is:

 

wavelength=  λ = 13584/(crossover frequency) in inches

 

For a 450 Hz crossover frequency, that's about 32 inches wavelength. 

 

12 inches (one foot) equals ~0.9 milliseconds

one inch equals ~74 microseconds. 

 

Those are two numbers that you can commit to memory--or a handy piece of paper.

 

Chris

[Chris A]

The delay of a Khorn bass bin is about 6 ms as measured from the front panel (including crossover delay).  That's about 81 inches. 

 

The delay of a K-402 with driver is about 16.5 inches as measured from the horn's mouth. 

 

The differential distance of the Khorn relative to the K-402 mouth is equivalent to ~64.5 inches, or 4.75 ms delay that you need to add to the HF channel.

 

You need to add 1/4 wavelength of time delay to the HF channel for every order of the crossover filters used between the bass bin and the K-402/driver.  So for first order, that's 1/4 wavelength, for second order, that's 1/2 wavelength, and so forth.  So for a third order filter used with a K-402 and Khorn bass bin, that's about 4.75 ms + 1.7 ms = 6.4 ms.

 

Chris

[Chris A]

Sorry for the separate posts, but perhaps it's better to separate the thoughts.

 

Looking at setting the delays on HF channels, you first should calculate the delay, as above, and apply them to the channel or channels (for three-way designs) that need to be delayed.  Then once you take a REW sweep, look at the spectrogram plot for the relative delays (which I find is the most reliable source of information).  Below you will see a spectrogram for a stock 1979 Cornwall:

 

 

You can see the midrange horn/driver is about 0.75 ms behind the tweeter (above 6 kHz) and about 0.5 ms behind the woofer (direct radiating).  If you were to triamp your Cornwalls and use the same order filters that the Cornwall passive crossover networks use (i.e., first order), then you would dial in 0.5 Ms delay on the bass bin channel, and 0.75 ms delay on the tweeter channel.  Then you would have something that looks more like the following spectrogram (in this second case, I've substituted an AMT-1 for the midrange and tweeter, then time aligned them):

 

[glens]

Not intended to be instructional to Chris, rather to flesh out what he'd said in the event it wasn't clear to whoever reads it later why he said what he'd said.

 

56 minutes ago, Chris A said:

In Houston (where the average indoor temperature year-round is probably 72-74° F or 22.2° C)...the formula is:

 

This is pertinent because the speed of sound in air depends on the density of the air the sound is traveling through.  More humid air is more dense than less humid air, and at lower elevation the air is more dense than at higher elevation.  And the following math, to be more accurate, requires knowing the speed of sound in the air you have at the moment in your location.

 

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

wavelength=  λ = 13584/(crossover frequency) in inches

 

13584 being the speed of sound in air in typical Houston as 1132 feet/second, times 12 to get 13584 inches/second.

 

The "crossover frequency" bit there is a tad confusing.  You can determine the wavelength (in inches with this formula) of any frequency desired by placing that frequency as the denominator.  In this case it's obvious the frequency of interest was that of the crossover point in question, but if you were interested in the length of a fully-formed 40 Hz wave, just divide 13584 inches-per-second by 40 cycles-per-second = ~340 inches-per-cycle.  Or that of 4.5 kHz: 13584 / 4500 = 3.02 inches. 

 

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

12 inches (one foot) equals ~0.9 milliseconds

one inch equals ~74 microseconds. 

 

The first being 1/(13584 ÷ 12) seconds, and the second being 1/(13584 ÷ 1) seconds.  It's just "one divided by 13584-divided-by-distance-in-inches".  Stuff like this makes for perfect use of your calculator's "1/x" button if it has one.