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402 horn from KPT-305 midbass blended with Khorn bass bin

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

You need to add 1/4 wavelength of time delay to the HF channel for every order of the crossover filters used between the bass bin and ...

 

Is this taking into consideration the fact that one of the drivers is getting phase-delay at the crossover point and the other is getting phase-advance, per order, each?

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For a pair of drivers crossed over, i.e., woofer-midrange, midrange-tweeter, etc., it's 90 degrees of additional phase delay on the lower frequency driver for each order of the filter. 

For a fourth-order set of crossover filters, that's one complete cycle of delay on the low frequency driver that should be compensated via delay of the HF channel.  

 

Chris 

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

 

 

You need to add 1/4 wavelength of time delay to the HF channel for every order of the crossover filters used between the bass bin and the K-402/driver.  So for first order, that's 1/4 wavelength, for second order, that's 1/2 wavelength, and so forth.  So for a third order filter used with a K-402 and Khorn bass bin, that's about 4.75 ms + 1.7 ms = 6.4 ms.

 

Chris

  • 1st Order Crossover   (1/4 wave length added)       =  0.65 ms  ? 
  • 2nd Order Crossover  (1/2 wave length added)       =  1.13 ms  ?    
  • 3rd Order Crossover   (2/3 wave length added ??)  =  1.70 ms  ?   
  • 4th Order Crossover   (ONE wave lengths added)   =  2.26 ms  ?

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7 minutes ago, Born2RockU said:

 1st Order Crossover (1/4 wave length added)=  .655ms  ??? /  2nd Order Crossover  (1/2 wave 'length added) = 1.13ms ??? /    3rd Order Crossover (Whole wave length added)= 2.26ms   /   4th Order Crossover (Two wave lengths added) =  4.52ms ???

Correct post above.  {If it's right)

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Basically, you have to add more delay on the HF channel--like what you said above.  You use the spectrogram plot to verify that your calculations and assumptions are correct, and you do the fine tuning using the spectrogram.

 

The problem is that you really can't completely compensate for the phase mismatch in and around the crossover frequency band due to the steepness of higher order crossover filter phase changes.  So there is a bit of a balancing game that I use to allow some delay through the crossover region. 

 

I look at the group delay (GD) plot to make sure that there aren't any spikes just above or below the crossover frequency that is introduced by the time delay that I use.  For instance,  the negative-going spike at 500 Hz is due to the crossover interference between the AMT-1 and the Cornwall woofer, even using a first order filter.  In this case, that group delay spike is due to the vertical separation of the AMT-1 from the woofer, even though the time delay is effectively compensated in this plot.

 

Biamped Cornwall bass bin with AMT-1 Group Delay.jpg

 

Chris

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4 minutes ago, Chris A said:

For a pair of drivers crossed over, i.e., woofer-midrange, midrange-tweeter, etc., it's 90 degrees of additional phase delay on the lower frequency driver for each order of the filter. 

For a fourth-order set of crossover filters, that's one complete cycle, of delay on the low frequency driver that should be compensated via delay of the HF channel.

 

Let's be clear(er) on this.  Your statement holds true for symmetrical filter orders between the two drivers.

 

But what's really causing the results you supplied is that for each order in the low-pass filter, there is a 45° delay and for each order in the high-pass there's a 45° advance.  This amounts to 90° total separation per order only when both have the same number of orders.  It would be all the same if there where a first-order on one plus a third-order on the other, or a second-order each.  But a first-order on one and a second-order on the other, for example would not yield a multiple-of-90° separation.

 

Naturally (rather ideally) one is going to fine-tune things with a REW spectrogram analysis, but to get into the ballpark using just math it helps to know a little more in depth what the factors are.

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THANK YOU guys,

  This really helps me understand how to get a ballpark start ;

      ...and that THE Spectrogram IS the final ANSWER !

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5 minutes ago, glens said:

Let's be clear(er) on this.  Your statement holds true for symmetrical filter orders between the two drivers.

 

Right.  I always try to keep the concepts as simple as possible (like A. Einstein recommended) when introducing new concepts in order for those learning to hang onto the facts at first, then deeper learning comes later on.  The real world truth is hopelessly complicated if you keep looking closer at the problem.

 

Chris

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21 hours ago, Born2RockU said:

I constructed a WIDER top for the KHorn Bass Bin...

 

Dude, looking at those pictures; you sealed the tops to the walls, and window fillers, with calk (or some modern equivalent)?  Way to go!

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On 2/15/2019 at 2:41 PM, Delicious2 said:

You're in for a treat Craig! 

 

I'm guessing that's an understatement!!

 

:emotion-21:

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Today's goals were accomplished fully, with no flaws :

  • Rewired the complete system into a 5.1 Bi-Amp'd configuration, using 10 Carver Pro ZR1600 MONO Blocks !  
  • Labeled every single Cable (...that's both ends of every single cable )
  • Labeled every Input + Output on all of the 11 amps.
  • Time aligned all the K-402 Horns with their Bass Bins, using my XILICA XP-4080 DPS's ;  applying Chris' recently shared formula / a 4th order Crossover / REW Spectrogram . 

Thank You CHRIS for all the guidance;  ...everything was spot on, as anticipated.

 

Here is a picture of my stacked amp racks, I rewired today !

 

This Anvil rack holds the 6 amps needed for the front stage L/C/R Jubilees ! 

 

282144641_Rack4.thumb.jpg.7d7a9b8f67e9e431ce2b55dff7a71efa.jpg

 

 

 

This rack stacks on top of that Anvil, and holds the 4 amps needed for the KHorn Bass bins/K-402 SURROUNDs ,

                 as well as, a Crown MacroTech VZ3600 Mono Block, for my Danley TH-50 sub.

 

812530027_Rack5.thumb.jpg.03051f0bef9c9a54692d29515acd641c.jpg

 

 

ALL of these amps are stacked outside the upstairs Jubilee Room . 152664367_Rack6.thumb.jpg.b28ec4a71e8d1c7ace8cea5354a605e2.jpg

 

TOMORROW's Goals:

  •                 Time align each speaker bank, corresponding to the listen position !
  •                 Then, set all the AMP levels with REW SPL Meter.
  •                 Begin the TUNING...

Have a great weekend , everyone ! 

 

~Rock on ,

                Craig

 

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Today is  my birthday.  Feels like an extra special gift to wake up to this thread taking off again with you taking it over the top Craig!   Incredible amp rack!  Here's an interesting old thread about the ZR1600.  Have you looked into modding them at all?

 

 

Excellent tops on the Khorn bins.  Having the K402s all around the same height may be more important for the coherence of the surround sound field than whether or not you lower them, I don't know.

I'm so glad Chris is helping you with this K402/Khorn bass integration.  My own journey into this new dimension of K402/Khorn bass/Xilica 4080 active DSP wouldn't be possible without Chris' unselfish guidance.

Can't wait to hear your listening impressions as you get this superb system dialed in.  As a drummer you likely have a better sense than most of the sound and feel of a live trap set.  This system seems designed to reproduce that sensation.  What will you be playing first?  Maybe some personal recordings of your own playing?

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10 hours ago, Born2RockU said:

ALL of these amps are stacked outside the upstairs Jubilee Room

 

...and plugged into a 15 amp outlet...

 

:ohmy:

 

:emotion-14:

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22 minutes ago, Coytee said:

 

...and plugged into a 15 amp outlet...

 

:ohmy:

 

:emotion-14:

That's a great statement. 

 I certainly need to consider getting something setup to maximize power upstairs.  What would you recommend ? A dedicated 30 amp breaker setup ?

 

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I'm not the one to ask...

 

When I did my basement, I had open walls.  I also needed a second distribution panel in the garage so, I created four (4) 20 amp circuits and put them on a lightswitch panel so my wife could easily turn things on/off at the flick of a switch.  (works very well)

 

I have an amp (K2) on each Juiblee at front right/left.  My center doesn't exist but each location has a switched upper outlet and the lower outlet is always hot (for those items you don't want to lose power to)

 

I ran the wires through the closet so I have four columns in there, corresponding to each speaker location and each of those outlets is also switched on top and hot on bottom.

 

Yeah, it's over kill but I had the outlets, had the space and SWORE that I would never again, do what I was doing upstairs when I first put the system together....that being, having something like 15 plugs daisy-chained into power strips and going into a single outlet.  I detested every moment of that and decided I'd have too many outlets so everything can properly plug in without using a power strip.

 

One reason I decided on four 20 amp circuits, is I was going to buy (and have space for it in the garage) a SurgeX protector that uses 4 circuits.

 

(let's face it, four 20 amp circuits is over kill for power)

 

https://www.ametekesp.com/surgex/branch-circuit/branch-circuit-120-208v

 

None the less, since it had 4 circuits and I had room, I put four circuits in and it works like a charm.

 

Took a while to get the wiring done since it was somewhat tedious.

 

Here's a picture of the closet and the front left corner.  Notice the outlet up high.  I was also wiring in case I wanted to put a tube amp on the 402 (I guess it could be SS) but what if I wanted to build a shelf above the speaker and set the amp up there?  With the short power cords of my K2's, the outlet made that an easy proposition.  I have instead, set the K2 atop the speaker and plugged the amp in the lower outlet.

 

Oh, and my wife was screaming bloody murder when she saw the orange outlets!!!  I told her to simply not touch anything orange (for lighting, cleaning, radio....anything)

 

Switches on top are for the electronics, the lower switches are for the room.

 

 

 

 

Closet.jpg

Corner 1.jpg

small switches.jpg

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1 hour ago, Delicious2 said:
  • Today is  my birthday.  Feels like an extra special gift to wake up to this thread taking off again with you taking it over the top Craig! 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY , MARK !

  •  Incredible amp rack!  Here's an interesting old thread about the ZR1600.  Have you looked into modding them ?

I love these Carver Pro ZR1600's . That is quite obviously, since these are the ONLY amps I own and use on all three of my home systems. 

I have owned  tube amps, and actually own a pair of the popular Craig Ostby's NOSVALVES !

But got tired of rolling tubes and the constant maintenance;

     ...then I found these Carver Pro ZR series Tripath'd amps.(Not a Bob Carver product) .

LOVE at first listen !  16 amps later, I am set for the house.

Mark , I can't find anyone now that does those MODs , ...but have considered it.

Instead of mod'ing these, the only other AMPs I would ever consider stepping up to would possibly be the Nelson Pass First Watt amps.

(I believe Chris is using these and I will be asking him for his guidance in that area, ....once more $$$ 'Mad Money' starts burning holes in my pockets.)

 

  • Excellent tops on the Khorn bins.  Having the K402s all around the same height may be more important for the coherence of the surround sound field than whether or not you lower them, I don't know.      EVERYTHING K-402s are at the same height. 

 

Quote

I'm so glad Chris is helping you with this K402/Khorn bass integration.  My own journey into this new dimension of K402/Khorn bass/Xilica 4080 active DSP wouldn't be possible without Chris' unselfish guidance.Can't wait to hear your listening impressions as you get this superb system dialed in.  As a drummer you likely have a better sense than most of the sound and feel of a live trap set.  This system seems designed to reproduce that sensation.  What will you be playing first?  Maybe some personal recordings of your own playing?

If it wasn't for Chris getting me started with the REW sweeps and assisted eMail tunings about 6 months ago, ...I do not know where I would be. 

As most of us buying Klipsch Jubilees, I had NO previous understanding of the XILICA  DSPs , nor how to use the REW system.

 

I've have over 40 years of Stage Time, as a performer, ...but very little knowledge about Digital Parametric EQ'ing.  AND, NO Clue on the subject of time alignment, since from my angle of bashing / playing the drums on stage had NOTHING to do with time alignment.  I understand EQing drums, but I have always been an ANALOG man...as far back as 1975 !

The Digital domain was a shocker and CHRIS was my saving grace.

 

CHRIS, I can never thank you enough for your guidance and leadership ! 

You have been an incredible mentor to me, and many others on our Klipsch Forum !

 

Thank You Chris, from the bottom of my heart. 

             ~YOU ROCK MY WORLD !

 

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3 minutes ago, Born2RockU said:

You have been an incredible mentor to me, and many others on our Klipsch Forum !

 

I'll second (third/fourth? I don't know where I am in line) that!

 

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9 minutes ago, Coytee said:

each location has a switched upper outlet and the lower outlet is always hot (for those items you don't want to lose power to)

 

I have always run 12-3 to every (non-kitchen) outlet box with a switched leg available, in every house or room addition I've built.  It's just so convenient later and is well worth the couple hundred extra.  Non-switched, half-switched, all-switched; what's your pleasure, at a whim...

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I agree.  My wife ....well....I can't tell you how far back into her head she rolled her eyes.  She almost looked like Reagan (of the Exorcist) with her eyes rolled so far!

 

Now that the hard part is over, it makes it a breeze.

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