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Super Heresy 2.0 (Baby Cornwall II mod.)


ClaudeJ1

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It's been almost 5 years since I began the Super Heresy 1 Modification, published 3 months later and enjoyed by many who spent the time and money to improve Klipsch boxes that are over 40 years old. However this 2.0 mod will require a greater investment of dollars than the original, but it is an improvement after all, and Audio improvements are seldom free, and subject to the laws of diminishing returns. You have been warned before the addictions sets in!!

 

It's time for an update, starting with the Super Tweeter selection. Here's a pair of curves for the Super Picky among you showing the B&C DE 120 (Green and Purple) vs. the DE 110 (Red and Blue) at Zero and 30 degree angles on DaveA's fantastic Little MAHL horn (Machined Aluminum Horn Lens). I'm showing a 4 Khz. to 20 Khz band measured from 1 meter away and drive through a 10 uF capacitor, which rolled off the input way below the area of interest (mostly for safety's sake by keeping lower frequencies out totally). Accidentally putting 20 Hz. into a tweeter isn't pretty or cheap. LOL.

 

All the curves have been offset to match a 6 Khz. point at 1/3 octave smoothing. They were paired off by angle and further offset for CLARITY and don't represent the actual Sound Pressure Level that was measured, (which will vary with capacitance and settings on the Autoformer),  then shown at a very high resolution 1/24th smoothing as well as a 2 db Vertical Increment step. Using the same MAHL for both drivers, swapping them out of a recapped E Network on a Pre-1980 Heresy 1, would yield only subtle difference in treble content, since we will still be using the same great Klipsch K55 driver with K700 Horn in all cases.

 

Things do look a bit "bumpy and dippy" above 15 Khz. or so, but since I can't hear above 13 Khz., like many of the older guys on this forum, it's of little concern except for your pets. I put the cursor on the 16 Khz. point as another reference besides the grid, since there is none between 10 and and 20 Khz. So basically, it's "Pick your favorite rolloff characteristic."

DE110vsDE120_0vs30_MAHL.jpg

http://www.ebaystores.com/rockman836lapidary is where you will find them or communicate to fieldweld@att.net.

https://www.parts-express.com/bc-de120-1-neodymium-mylar-compression-driver-8-ohm-2-3-bolt--294-5809

http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-DE110-1.htm

DE110_120.jpg

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Here's a plot of the response of a DE-120 on a MAHL vs. an square magnet K77 in an old Heresy cabinet for comparison. Which begs the old ad question: "Got Cymbals?" Now the cheapest improvement to the Blue curve would be to just replace the diaphragms, but replacing the whole tweeter gets you the Red curve, which is up to your ears and your wallet.

 

This is a much lower peaks and dips resolution set of curves vs. the ones in the prior post, but you still get the idea. The rolloff in this 1/3 octave smoothed sample starts at 7.8 Kilohertz on the K77 and keeps going to 20 Khz. on the DE-120.

 

DavA_MAHL_DE120vsK77.jpg

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Now for the woofer section.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-kappalite-3012ho-neo-12-speaker-driver--290-589 This neo magnet woofer opens up a bit of box volume vs. the original recommendation of the Delta Pro 12 A below. It also has about 35% more Xmax, so it can be pushed a bit harder at parties, depending on how much alcohol is involved. 6.2mm Xmax vs. 4.6mm Xmas for the Super Heresy 1 woofer.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-cabinet-port-tube-4-id-x-4-l-flared--260-403 This is the same port as the Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwall). But now you can symmetrically mount the port in the lower center of the cabinet instead of in the lower corner like before (when the woofer magnet was too big).

 

Kappalite3012HO.jpg

SH2cropRear.jpg

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20 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Now for the woofer section.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-kappalite-3012ho-neo-12-speaker-driver--290-589 This neo magnet woofer opens up a bit of box volume vs. the original recommendation of the Delta Pro 12 A below. It also has about 35% more Xmas, so it can be pushed a bit harder at parties, depending on how much alcohol is involved. 6.2mm Xmax vs. 4.6mm Xmas for the Super Heresy 1 woofer.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-cabinet-port-tube-4-id-x-4-l-flared--260-403 This is the same port as the Super Heresy 1 (Baby Cornwall). But now you can symmetrically mount the port in the lower center of the cabinet instead of in the lower corner like before (when the woofer magnet was too big).

 

Kappalite3012HO.jpg

SH2cropRear.jpg

Can i ask again for benefit of others with HIP, as far as the port is concerned, the already ported HIP will be an OK cabinet to  use for the Super Heresy

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On 10/6/2018 at 11:48 AM, Allhartfidelity said:

Can i ask again for benefit of others with HIP, as far as the port is concerned, the already ported HIP will be an OK cabinet to  use for the Super Heresy

The port volume is almost the same as my round one shown here. However, according to Jim Jimbo, who got my Original Supers, the bass from a front ported HIP is not as strong as the rear port of the Super because there is no acoustic amplification from the rear wall loading (the idea was borrowed from $20,000 Klipsch Palladiums). However, the HIP does benefit from the foam insulation and the reduction of midrange and treble from the crossover modification. Much better balance for Hi Fi vs. the stock version which is meant to scream as loud as possible for PA with a subwoofer and not as good for Hi Fi as modded HIPs with toned down treble section and box mirange resonance absorption.

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  • ClaudeJ1 changed the title to Super Heresy 2.0 (Baby Cornwall II mod.)
On 10/6/2018 at 8:53 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

The port volume is almost the same as my round one shown here. However, according to Jim Jimbo, who got my Original Supers, the bass from a front ported HIP is not as strong as the rear port of the Super because there is no acoustic amplification from the rear wall loading (the idea was borrowed from $20,000 Klipsch Palladiums). However, the HIP does benefit from the foam insulation and the reduction of midrange and treble from the crossover modification. Much better balance for Hi Fi vs. the stock version which is meant to scream as loud as possible for PA with a subwoofer and not as good for Hi Fi as modded HIPs with toned down treble section and box mirange resonance absorption.

I have the crites hip xover (think they were) yet to be installed. Did receive instructions from Bob on how to attenuate the mid, which i will likely do as i understand they run hot normally? To my ears, less mid automatically lends itself to bass being heard more. I will try them with the front stock port. I do run Belle Klipsch as well, and in time may use the HIP For rear channel if i can find a quiet enough multichannel amp so bass wont be an issue (would have a sub) My Krell is just to noisy on these. (So was the lexicon) 

  I will pull the info you gave on the damping of the box as well, as the HIP are in queue for the makeover next after the mc-60's for which to run the Belle. Wish the boxes of these HIP werent fugly bed liner pro version stuff, but oh well i guess. Found them listed wrongly on local craigs for 150 so diddnt care to much. I greatly appriciate all your feedback, research and design on the Heresy line.

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  • 1 month later...

I just got a box of air core inductors from Parts Express to experiment with.

 

Using the small MAHL horn lens and the B&C drivers (and forthcoming Faitals I need to curve), we can cross over to the tweeter drivers at a much lower frequency for even greater detail and smoothness than what has historically been provided by the K55 driver with K700. This also applies to the Super Cornwall's K600 horns I'm working on.

 

The mains improvement that comes from the "dual phase plug" variants of the K55's is in knocking down the nasty 9 Khz. peak that rears it's ugly head in the same band as the tweeter. Someone else designed a "P-trap" to take care of that, but I'd rather roll it off sooner and use the superior super tweeters in the 3-4 Khz. range as a solution.

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  • 1 month later...

@ClaudeJ1

As can be readily seen, I'm pretty much a newbie here, but have been reading with great interest, especially your many posts on modding the Heresy.

 

I'm a bit of an "older fart" (just over 60), love my high notes (though I've been suffering from tinnitus since my early teens - 5,7khz@54db), and though I had wanted a pair of Klipschorn's with their stomach churning kick, I settled for smaller as I didn't have the room.

 

I have a 1981 set of Heresy 1's I bought new. Unfortunately, the middle dust cap of both of the K-22-E's came loose last year on one side. (Man, these Klipsch's only lasted 36 years of daily playing, 4-10 hrs/day). I drive them with a same vintage Technics SU-V4K (now replaced with the SU-V4X last month).

 

I was able to carefully reglue the the dustcovers back on. There was also some slight separation of the paper cone (no tears/cuts), which were "fixed" the same way.

I've been reading the Super Heresy 1 thread with interest, with the idea of upgrading my speakers. Now, you've come up with the Super 2 mod...  Tough choices need to be made, but I'm liking what I'm seeing here.

 

So, am I understanding this correctly-

With the DE-120/MAHL and the more expensive 3012HO-NEO , I can keep my existing E crossover (still with the big cans) but would in all likelihood need to upgrade the capacitors on it. Or do I have to put different values in? Where does the 10uf cap go (and does it matter which way)?

 

So, the middle set (K-55-V / K700) get to stay where it is, the upper & lowers have to come out, say goodbye and greet the new brethren who are dying to take their place, with the foam padding and port ready to cuddle them in...  Am I missing anything else?

 

What else am I missing?

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P1160863s.jpg

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On 10/5/2018 at 9:55 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

It's time for an update, starting with the Super Tweeter selection. Here's a pair of curves for the Super Picky among you showing the B&C DE 120 (Green and Purple) vs. the DE 110 (Red and Blue) at Zero and 30 degree angles on DaveA's fantastic Little MAHL horn (Machined Aluminum Horn Lens). I'm showing a 4 Khz. to 20 Khz band measured from 1 meter away and drive through a 10 uF capacitor, which rolled off the input way below the area of interest (mostly for safety's sake by keeping lower frequencies out totally). Accidentally putting 20 Hz. into a tweeter isn't pretty or cheap. LOL.

 

So I'm starting to gather the required parts/components for this. Do I need to get a 10uF cap? If so, what kind & where does it get put in (directional?). I'm a bit ignorant in this, but very willing to learn. Just don't really want to blow up these not too cheap components....   thx Claude. @ClaudeJ1

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10 hours ago, CoolCanuck said:

 

So I'm starting to gather the required parts/components for this. Do I need to get a 10uF cap? If so, what kind & where does it get put in (directional?). I'm a bit ignorant in this, but very willing to learn. Just don't really want to blow up these not too cheap components....   thx Claude. @ClaudeJ1

I never used a 10 uF capacitor in a Heresy. The values are 2 uF and 4 uF respectively. In fact, I would recommend buying a 10-12 of the 2 uF capacitors from Part Express or other polypropylene suppliers and using them in parallel to get a 4 uF value for 2 reasons. One is you get a discount for buying 10 of them, AND two, as a more subtle technical tweak, wiring them in reverse from each other. Yes I know they are not polarized electrically, but they are polarized with respect to how they are made. They are wound like a roll of toilet paper, with on lead at the beginning center, and the second lead at the end of the exterior radius. So, wiring them in parallel with the LABELS reversed from each other, you get two times the value (4 uF) while reducing the already low ESR value to half (which was already great to start with, but even better).

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For the bass improvement: order this flared port (cheap) https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-cabinet-port-tube-4-id-x-4-l-flared--260-403 and cut the appropriate size hole in the rear bottom corner.  

Remove the K-22 woofer and replace with K-42-K, ordered from Klipsch parts or an Eminence Kappalite 3012 HO, or Delta Pro 12A from Parts Express (if you don't have a serial number on the back of your old Heresy Cabinets). You should use 8 screws per woofer instead of just 4, since the magnet is huge on the K-42 and very heavy, but you can use 4 screws on the Kappalite 3012 HO, since it's light enough. The Delta Pro woofer weighs almost 20 lbs. and more screws are cheap insurance. You will need #10, 1 1/4" screws since the cast woofer frame is thicker than the K22 you are removing, but the Kappalite 3012 HO can still use the same 4 screws, since it lives up to it's name.

Put foam on all surfaces inside the cabinet to absorb and keep the rear generated midrange stuff from bouncing around.

You will need to increase the K55 idrange and tweeter output by 3 db to match the more efficient woofer.

I have an "E" network, so I changed the first capacitor going to the autoformer from 2 uf. to a 4 uf. You can buy  new caps, or just solder two 2 uf. capacitor in parallel, when you buy 6 total on top of each other there now if your network was refreshed. If not replace those old fat original capacitors with the following: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dmpc-20-20uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor--027-414

Unsolder the wires from terminal 2 (K55V midrange position) and 3 (tweeter position). Now solder the midrange wire that was on terminal #2 onto #3. Those of you with "D" networks should reverse the leads going to the K55V driver.

Take the K-77 tweeter wire and solder it to terminal #4 on the autoformer. This should have been unused before.

For a tweeter that stomps a K-77 and is worth every penny, do what I did to get those sweet, flat tweeter portions of my curves and superior definition on cymbals and harmonics of all instruments.

 

As you will see, depending on which woofer you end up using, your ROOM, how far the speakers are IN/OUT of Walls/Corners, your personal taste, etc. etc. you may want to TWEAK your own variables to your TASTE, ok? For the woofer section, the original 2.5 milliHenry Klipsch Iron Core choke worked fine to my ears. Remember, this will control the Midrange Frequency Rolloff as it hands the sound over to the Midrange Horn. My using the original woofer inductor was part convenience/laziness, and it measured/sounded good to ME. But it was for a Klipsch K-42 or Kappalite 3012 HO woofer. 

 

Also, as an alternative, you can just replace the capacitors and leave the E alone (don't change the autoformer taps), which will give you stronger bass.

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Now I am working on a further Crossover modification to bring in the MAHL and DE-110 tweeter into the mix at about 4 kHz. while rolling off the K55 and lowering the 9 Khz. peak the rears it's ugly head that interferes with the Super Tweeter's frequency band. Meanwhile, the 3 woofers of choice are still the same.

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OK Claude. Just about to hit the "Checkout" button. Planning on getting the items from QComponents in Waterloo,ON. Prices are a bit lower than PartsExpress, with free shipping. Yea, there's GST, but it more than makes up for the Crossborder shipping charges etc.

 

- The 2uF capacitors they have are McBride MCC2PE , but they're 10%. Is that still OK? Yes, I'll double them up as suggested.

- They also have both the DE-110 and DE-120 's - at CAD 92.74 and CAD 94.76 respectively. Will be getting Dave's small MAHL's, but he only ships within the USA... :(  Think I'll go with the 120's, as I can still hear 17k... :) Or would you advise differently?

 

Are you seeing benefits from the different roll-over freq's - i.e.- should I be getting different caps or even adding inductors?

thx

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Adding an inductor will come later, if at all, as I will be experimenting heavily with that portion by Janauary. It's an incremental modification either way, so just do all the other stuff in the meantime. Keeping the midrange as is with new caps has worked so far, so it's all about the tweeters, either one will do. 10% on caps is good enough and should be done first, since those old cans are crap by now. Just changing the caps will "lift the veils" from the female vocals and you will be able to tell whether guitars are steel or nylon strings again. Get the Kappalite 3012 HO, the tweeters, the woofers and the port. If you can't get the ones from parts express, any 4" Inner Diameter pipe cut 4" deep will do if Parts Express won't ship to Canada. I will talk to DaveA about shipping to you, since I have done all the curves for him, but I can't promise anything on the MAHLs until then.

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