Strong Rhetoric on China

[Jeff Matthews]

19 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

This and these kinds of things have been ongoing for years.  Tibet has been an issue in the same way.  You almost seem shocked at recent efforts despite their long running history of oppression, especially of minorities. 

That's a fair observation.  Until recently in my life, I've had no special connection to make me care to actually be informed as to what's going on there.  Over the past couple of years, I've come to know a number of Chinese, and now that I have that connection, I care to know more about them and their lives.

 

It's one thing to hear a talk show host give a 15-second summary of "the world's next saga in addressing ongoing human rights abuses."  That was the extent of my exposure until I cared to study it in more detail.   I am pretty sure this describes the experience of most Americans.  Sure, they know about these things, but they have no connection to actually internalize them.

[dm465531]

Well if a kid getting run over by a tank in 89 didnt get the ball rolling on if Americans give a shit about human rights over there I think you are going to be hard pressed to get the Americans to care about Muslims way out on the fringes. It may not be right but that is how it is.  I think ethnic Hans are about 90% of the population in China.

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

These are related.  A good propagandist (visit the primary definition of propaganda) could point it out easily.

I don't think they are related at all, at least historically.

 

The US has supported many, many regimes that were atrocious on human rights, but were deemed to be in the country's best interest and were supported in office. Opponents, in the UN usually, would emphasize human rights violations, we would minimize or argue that US support was most likely way to achieve better conditions in country X.

 

The reverse is also true, on regimes deemed not to be in our best interests, we empathize human rights violations, atrocities, etc., to garner support to apply ecomomic sanctions, military pressure, etc.

 

Actually, I now disagree with myself.  If a state had a large segment of CITIZENS from a particular area, like Armenians in Fresno, Serbians in Chicago, Irish in Boston, Cubans in Las Vegas or Miami, and there were perceived "human rights" violations  it could become enough of an issue to swing an election.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

2 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

That's a fair observation.  Until recently in my life, I've had no special connection to make me care to actually be informed as to what's going on there.  

Not sure it is a fair observation.   The only reason I knew about it is listening to people who do business over there a decade ago, reading those two books I mentioned earlier, and starting to see the articles on human rights lawyers in China.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/magazine/the-lonely-crusade-of-chinas-human-rights-lawyers.html

 

They convicted the most prominent human rights lawyer over there last November, sentenced him to 2 years.   He had been locked up for the last two years.  Now the fight is to get him credit for pretrial detention.

 

Shakespeare was right,  if you want to get rid of civil rights, deny human rights, the first thing you do is kill (or jail) all the lawyers.

 

If anyone wants to stay abreast of human rights in a particular country look at  the Amnesty International website,  if you want to try and do something, join them.

 

 

 

 

[Max2]

Forget liberating China.

 

We need to be rallying our skinny partners and figure out who is going to be on our side of the table.   This is a muscle operation and it will take every bogus Euro ally we have to get things right.  We know the Ruskies will fall in line with them as well as every other evil post stamp country will.  IMO, China is worse than any of the rest, they just cover the gamut of filth very well.  Russia and China with a power play on us is big trouble.

 

 

[Jeff Matthews]

17 minutes ago, Max2 said:

Forget liberating China.

 

We need to be rallying our skinny partners and figure out who is going to be on our side of the table.   This is a muscle operation and it will take every bogus Euro ally we have to get things right.  We know the Ruskies will fall in line with them as well as every other evil post stamp country will.  IMO, China is worse than any of the rest, they just cover the gamut of filth very well.  Russia and China with a power play on us is big trouble.

 

 

That's what I think, too.  I am still learning, but if I saw correctly, I think Australia has been feeling strong on this longer than we have.  So, maybe that's one important ally in the mix.  If things get ugly, I hope it takes nothing more than mere economic pressure.

[LarryC]

This fuss is being ginned up primarily to counteract and distract from recent and pending fuss over Russian meddling, hacking, etc.  The underlying intent is pro-Russian.  No coincidence.

[billybob]

Lol, you could not throw the bully boy and China on US for all the green tea in China...

[oldtimer]

Have you noticed that the strong rhetoric has now surfaced after the trade war started?  Do you think there might be a connection?  Will it work?  Has it ever worked with anyone?  There are really only two hammers in the drawer.  One is economic, and the other is military.

Knowing that global public opinion doesn't really matter to them, for whom is the rhetoric actually intended?  Knowing that there is currently no appetite for a military conflict over human rights, isn't it more likely that the rhetoric is primarily an attempt to leverage support for trade policy, and secondarily an attempt to pressure the Chinese into some small concessions in a trade agreement?  So, it's not our fault, and it's not a trade issue, except it is a trade issue if it is made into one.  Unfortunately human rights are relegated to being a political football---sometimes played with, sometimes punted, and sometimes left in the closet.  What do you think Jeff, is the right thing to do?

[Zen Traveler]

5 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

6 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

We shouldn't have stuck with the TPP and tried to work within it. 

You're still not getting it.  China is not oppressing its citizens because we insist on better trade terms.  China is oppressing its people despite our trade policy. 

And what you don't get is us distancing ourselves from the rest of the world on negotiated global policies makes our allies and us consider the economic situation more than what they are doing to their citizens. 

5 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

This has nothing to do with foreign policy of the US - except in regard to how we choose to react.

 

Sure it does and AFTER I made the point about the TPP Max Boot was saying the same thing on Morning Joe about China. 

 

5 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

Remember the outrage you and many others expressed concerning our domestic "Muslim ban?"  China is engaging in a "Muslim ban on steroids."  It's not our fault.

Of course it's not our fault and the folks that signed on to the TPP could have used leverage in coercing them to go in a different direction--If you haven't heard Nationalism of all sorts is the response to breaking up global coalitions. 

 

5 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

You should also look into China's current plan to institute a national "Social Credit Score" for citizens. 

Now we are getting into Chinese politics and trying to solve their problems when we are only going to have influence with allies--Going it alone is a fools errand. 

[Jeff Matthews]

2 hours ago, LarryC said:

This fuss is being ginned up primarily to counteract and distract from recent and pending fuss over Russian meddling, hacking, etc.  The underlying intent is pro-Russian.  No coincidence.

I know it's not intentional, but that's kind of insulting to the Chinese - especially, the ones who are living in hell right now.

[Jeff Matthews]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

Have you noticed that the strong rhetoric has now surfaced after the trade war started?  Do you think there might be a connection?  Will it work?  Has it ever worked with anyone?  There are really only two hammers in the drawer.  One is economic, and the other is military.

Knowing that global public opinion doesn't really matter to them, for whom is the rhetoric actually intended?  Knowing that there is currently no appetite for a military conflict over human rights, isn't it more likely that the rhetoric is primarily an attempt to leverage support for trade policy, and secondarily an attempt to pressure the Chinese into some small concessions in a trade agreement?  So, it's not our fault, and it's not a trade issue, except it is a trade issue if it is made into one.  Unfortunately human rights are relegated to being a political football---sometimes played with, sometimes punted, and sometimes left in the closet.  What do you think Jeff, is the right thing to do?

As I alluded in an earlier post, whatever the motivations, there are a lot of people who need help.  If a trade war erupts into an action which incidentally liberates them, great!  If, on the other hand, we forget them as quickly as better trade terms come along, that's kind of a sad thing.  

 

These are tough situations.  I don't just advocate for global/regional conflict at every turn of injustice.  I am more interested in seeing what our leaders do, as opposed to what I think they should do.  There are legitimate positions from all sides.

[Jeff Matthews]

1 hour ago, Zen Traveler said:

7 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

This has nothing to do with foreign policy of the US - except in regard to how we choose to react.

 

Sure it does and AFTER I made the point about the TPP Max Boot was saying the same thing on Morning Joe about China. 

I don't care what Max Boot thinks.  These re-education camps were being built before Trump was even a contender.   You just have a hard time believing that bad things go on in the world without reference to the almighty one.

[Jeff Matthews]

Quote

Us:        We want better trade terms.  We'll impose tariffs if we don't get them.

Them:  We'll show you!  We're going to put a million of our Muslims in concentration camps!

 

It's absurd on its face.  I don't know why anyone thinks we precipitated this.

[oldtimer]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

I don't care what Max Boot thinks.  These re-education camps were being built before Trump was even a contender.   You just have a hard time believing that bad things go on in the world without reference to the almighty one.

You mean before we were born.  Interpreting any of this using the very near term past is part of the problem, being sub-critical thinking.

[Jeff Matthews]

Just now, oldtimer said:

You mean before we were born.  Interpreting any of this using the very near term past is part of the problem, being sub-critical thinking.

You are correct.   

[LarryC]

24 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

I know it's not intentional, but that's kind of insulting to the Chinese - especially, the ones who are living in hell right now.

That's giving Russia a pass by presuming Russia + China are a zero sum. I'm only saying that Trump is trying to direct attention away from news of Russian meddling by trying to redirect fingers to China, which to my eyes seems to be a lesser offender.  China didn't try to swallow up Ukraine or possibly succeed in using subversive friends to help throw an American election and may still be trying.

[Travis In Austin]

14 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

I don't care what Max Boot thinks.  These re-education camps were being built before Trump was even a contender.   You just have a hard time believing that bad things go on in the world without reference to the almighty one.

Please ignore him.  Let's keep this thread alive and continue the perfectly appropriate discussion up to this point.

 

I just hid @Zen Traveler 3 most recent posts which were clearly an attempt to swing this talk into current national politics.  @Zen Traveler, I agreed completely with what you had in 2 of those posts, but you are clearly taking jabs at current admin, please stop doing this.  If you can't help yourself stay out of here,  I put too much time into trying to keep this thread from being locked.

[oldtimer]

1 minute ago, LarryC said:

That's giving Russia a pass by presuming Russia + China are a zero sum. I'm only saying that Trump is trying to direct attention away from news of Russian meddling by trying to redirect fingers to China, which to my eyes seems to be a lesser offender.  China didn't try to swallow up Ukraine or possibly succeed in using subversive friends to help throw an American election, and may still be trying.

You are on thin ground here.  There is plenty of reason to suspect China of every offense Russia has committed, with the exception of personal compromat.  China is trying to swallow up the South China Sea, it has swallowed up Tibet, and has pressured other border areas.  To me, this is not so much as a diversion tactic by a corrupt administration as it is a negotiating ploy (by a corrupt administration, lol).  The swamp is being drained you know, and being replaced with a sewer.

[Jeff Matthews]

1 minute ago, LarryC said:

That's giving Russia a pass by presuming Russia + China are a zero sum. I'm only saying that Trump is trying to direct attention away from news of Russian meddling by trying to redirect fingers to China, which to my eyes seems to be a lesser offender.  China didn't try to swallow up Ukraine or possibly succeed in using subversive friends to help throw an American election, and may still be trying.

You might want to do a little looking into what China has been doing to influence not only our elections and local policies, but those of many other nations around the world, too.  

 

I don't know if locking up a million Muslim citizens without due process is a lesser offender than Russia, or not.  Make the case for me.