Albatross Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 I want to learn about the different horns used in loudspeakers. What are the different types, and the pros and cons of the different types? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter P. Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 THIS is a pretty good primer. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 If you want a little more than the very high level stuff of the Wikipedia article, I recommend Beranek's Acoustics, chapter 9. Olson's Acoustical Engineering also has some important topics on horns that are not found in Beranek, like the concept of corner room loading in his topic of multiple manifolded exponential horns. If you can read through these two sources, you will have left behind 99% of the rest of the world in terms of understanding horns. There is a more updated reference on "waveguides" (i.e., Earl Geddes' trademark distinction between horns and waveguides is by the use of the wave equation to understand what the waveguide is doing...here. There really isn't a good source on tractrix horns, but note that exponential horns and tractrix horns are the same at their small ends (throats), but differ only toward the mouth end of the horn. Unlike all other horn profiles, the tractrix horn profile starts at the mouth end and works toward the throat. Most of these topics require nothing more than pre-calculus math (algebra, analytic geometry, etc.) and a little calculus and differential equations as you get closer to the wave equation. If you define the variables being used in each of the equations by writing them out in the text as a gloss, and then just follow the authors thoughts, looking at the final equations, you will be able to comprehend these sources. Once you see what is occurring with respect to historical horn design (mostly having to do with efficiency and coverage), to today's work with multiple entry horns (Danley) and Geddes' oblate spheroid (OS) throated horns, you will have a much clearer perspective on a subject that I've found has a great deal of really bad information that is passed around as fact. Chris 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Use Duratex on your horn and you won’t need primer. Oh wait . . . you weren’t asking about paint. Never mind. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 Thank you Chris and Peter. I will study this info. And Diz, your info might just come in handy someday. There are questions I have that might not be answered in these links, like what are all the important considerations in the connection between driver and horn? and is the rigidity of the horn important (As in best material to use)? Can you Damp a horn too much? Should it be very smooth? Thanks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 13 minutes ago, Albatross said: , like what are all the important considerations in the connection between driver and horn? and is the rigidity of the horn important (As in best material to use)? Can you Damp a horn too much? Should it be very smooth? Thanks. Maybe it would help to approach this from the other way around. What are you trying to accomplish? DIY build? Rehab an older Klipsch speaker? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 The ideal horn material is completely rigid. The joint between the horn and driver needs to be smooth internally and non-flexible structurally. Damping the inside of the horn: as long as the on-axis frequency response is not materially affected by the absorption internally, the sound of the horn/driver should be okay. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 Here is what I am trying to find out. What are the pros and cons of these different horns ( as seen in the picture) for both home audio use and for small venue use? What are the Edgar Salad bowl horns an example of, from the possibilities in the picture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 On 10/14/2018 at 9:43 AM, wvu80 said: Maybe it would help to approach this from the other way around. What are you trying to accomplish? DIY build? Rehab an older Klipsch speaker? I want to learn about the different horn possibilities and what they are good for, but am hearing amazing things about the BMS 4592ND (the full range ones,) so looking to make a build around these. I owned Cornwalls and loved them, but am wanting to move up in build quality. If appropriate, I could start with the Cornscala square bass bin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I think you will want horn loaded bass too. That's half of the magic. Shakey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 13 hours ago, Albatross said: Here is what I am trying to find out. What are the pros and cons of these different horns ( as seen in the picture) for both home audio use and for small venue use? What are the Edgar Salad bowl horns an example of, from the possibilities in the picture? I think that you will find most of those horn profiles discussed here: https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf There are some issues with the article linked just above, discussed here: http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/Horn Theory reply.pdf Bruce Edgar used mostly tractrix profiles: http://www.diale.org/pdf/The Tratrix Horn Contour.pdf The best way to identify a tractrix horn profile is by looking at the mouth of the horn...it will always be flush with the mounting surface of a flat board (i.e., a "baffle"). This is because the horn profile itself starts at the mouth instead of the throat, and it's always 90 degrees to the centerline of the horn. Le Cléac'h and spherical wave (Kugelwelle) profiles will also flare out at the mouth, but most people continue to carry the horn profile past 90 degrees so that it continues to smoothly fold back on itself (unnecessarily I might add, since there is greatly diminishing returns on investment for continuing the horn expansion past 90 degrees). 12 hours ago, Albatross said: I want to learn about the different horn possibilities and what they are good for, but am hearing amazing things about the BMS 4592ND (the full range ones,) so looking to make a build around these. I owned Cornwalls and loved them, but am wanting to move up in build quality. If appropriate, I could start with the Cornscala square bass bin. It is true that there is a qualitative sound difference in horn-loaded bass over direct radiating bass bins (reflex, closed box, open baffle). These differences become more pronounced the louder that you play them (i.e., nonlinear distortion) and is due to the much higher levels of modulation distortion in the direct radiating bass bins, as well as higher levels of group delay. More on that subject here: https://community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=82430 Chris 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 11 hours ago, Albatross said: On 10/13/2018 at 9:43 PM, wvu80 said: What are you trying to accomplish? DIY build? I want to learn about the different horn possibilities and what they are good for, It sounds like you want to DIY using a horn design. Do you have woodworking tools and skills, or do you need a flatpack? Can you solder, or do you want to solder as part of the DIY experience? Check out DIYSoundgroup.com for SEOS designs. Several of us on this Klipsch Forum also have DIYSoundgroup kits so it you have a question someone might be able to help. I have a couple of these kits which use SEOS waveguides (horns and compression drivers). This is the spheroid oblate design. These kits are sold at cost and are a great bang-for-the-buck. https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-theater-speaker-kits/home-theater-series/home-theater-monitors.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 One caveat on the SEOS horns (super elliptical oblate spheroid) from AutoTech: they all have 1" throat diameters. I've found that 2" compression drivers are a real advantage in avoiding adding a third "way" to the loudspeaker, and another set of crossover filters, etc. with all its requisite issues. You basically can't do a two-way, which is heavily favored, IMHO (like the Klipsch Jubilee). You're forced into using three-way designs using separate horn apertures, and the SEOS horns aren't really the best candidates for multiple-entry horn conversion, too. Chris 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatross Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 I've been traveling, but want to thank everybody for their response. Does anybody know what the Orphean horn is an example of? I think it is what the Avant Guard's use. Here is a picture of BD Designs version. Also, I'm wondering what the black sleaves are? I am thinking of a two way with BMS 4592ND/16 compression drivers. I don't know yet what to use for the horn or the woofers? The Orphean looks like a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 There are differing possibilities on what the horn profile is for the Orphean horn, but it looks like a JMLC (Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h) horn profile. I'd recommend looking at the pattern beaming that you get from that kind of horn profile. The guys that use JMLC horns typically have very small listening rooms, and set up their loudspeakers in room to have very small sweet spot listening areas. This is something that you don't have to do with other horn profiles--notably the K-402s or K-510s. The sleeves that you refer look to be decorative MDF cylinders. The compression driver offered with the horn (BMS 4592ND) doesn't need a back volume enclosure. The MDF cylinder looks nice but also cut off natural convection cooling of the compression drivers--in case you're thinking about using these for higher SPL duty (above 110 dB at 1m). Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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