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Consensus on Rev1 RF-7s? Which mods clean them up?


Fast1

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I would simply LOVE to throw some 7-iiis in my space just to see if their sonics prove my theory.  The very first thing I did when I got my 7s was do a high end component swap on the Xovers.  I cannot recall if I made any value tweeks or not.  It has been years and I guess I will have to review my data.  Though the mods seemed to help, there is just no denying the 7s can pierce your ears all while being a bit "muddy" IMO.  Now, for non-audio people, I am sure they sound great, of course when you compare to cheap speakers, but I cannot honestly say the 7s every really impressed me.  

 

The sounds I hear, and just articulating what I hear, seem to be like resonance building up in the mid to top ranges or possibly lower octave waves causing issues.  I know I have asked before if my gear was causing all this or the speakers, and I think most that had Horns or Jubs and have run the 7s indicated the speakers were the primary issue.  I am running them on a Rotel 1090, which is 380wpc, so they are being well fed.  

 

I have been reading a few tech threads on the speakers but curious if anyone has it really sorted out by now?  It seemed to be moving notches around but not really solving the problems or even identifying them.  Surely if the iiis are found to be pleasing all the way around, their sonics can be directly compared.  Personally, I prefer 10" drivers so the iis seem more for me.  However, I have questioned the horn from day one.  Then I seem people adding damping materials to it, which seems the exact right direction to go, unless Klipsch had intended for the horn resonance to "color" the sound in some way, but that seems counter productive to what is being desired with high end speakers.  Reproduce the sound as recorded, not color it up artificially.  

 

I read about removing the mesh on the horns and I may wish to try that.  I feel that though the speakers are harsh, they still seem to lack clarity at very high ranges.  It can be hard to explain.  

 

I have also seen that the iiis now have isolated woofers.  I don't know how isolated but I have always wondered if the lower frequencies in a common enclosure would cause disruption in the high range.  Many extreme high end speakers completely remove the high range drivers from the woofer enclosure.  But I guess folded horns seems to get it done so maybe that is not a thing.  

 

All in all, just looking for things to test on the 7s.  

 

 

 

 

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Sell em and get good money for them (pull the modded xovers out and replace with stock if you have them) . Contact @MetropolisLakeOutfitters and buy some RF7 IIIs.   You will spend time and money middling them and may never be happy. Don't know what your budget is, but it sounds like you have already given missing those speakers a go and weren't happy with the end result.  If that doesn't work for you, good luck on the modding, I can't help you there.  

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Dean, I will review my previous mods.  I know you have worked with them for years and I likely followed your guidance when I modded them.  I will see what values I used.  I know I have I still have the original components.  I just added everything to the OEM PCB.  

 

Have you tested damping the horns or removed the diaphragm mesh?  

 

 

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I just opened the speakers since my pics didn't show the values.  Looks like I replaced all the caps with film/foil Audiocap Thetas, and wire wound non-inductive resistors and I did the parallel 10/2 ohm mod on the HF.  I remember testing them before the mods and it did smooth them out but they are still hard to listen to.  

 

I threw in some KennyG tonight just for fun.  It just hurts to listen to that!

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9 hours ago, Brandon said:

Reproduce the sound as recorded, not color it up artificially.  

 

The problem is that we don't know when a speaker is reproducing sound as it was live, because we don't know what it sounded like live; it's high fidelity to the imagined original that counts.  Obviously, the recording equipment itself changes the sound.  There is microphone diaphragm crashing, resonance, poor mic placement, etc.  If the recording is bad, a good speaker will let you know it's bad.  Or not.  Some gild the lily, veil the sound, and, IMO, don't sound as detailed when the recording is great.

 

I carry no brief for the 7's.  I've never heard them.  I'm a Heritage kind of guy.

 

I have been around live music a lot, playing in orchestras and bands (mostly in school) and I've very occasionally heard live, unamplified, unreinforced music that sounds like it has "horn resonance" (often in a poor acoustical environment, but once a friend demonstrated his "fat sounding" flute to me in the great outdoors, and I felt like reaching for damping material, but there was no horn to damp!)

 

Since we often have only the imagined original to compare reproduced sound to, perhaps technical measurements become more important.  But, how do we prioritize them?  I think Paul Kiipsch put low distortion (especially modulation distortion) first in importance and smoothness of frequency response last -- but I may remember incorrectly. 

 

I assume you have run a sweep to see if there are any big peaks in the horn range.  I would compare low SPL to high SPL by ear, to see if there is a big difference.

I know some people like room correction, and some don't, but Audyssey smooths out my response nicely (used after moderate room treatment).   If you can try Audyssey, read this: "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here" It takes patience, and a few tries.

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6 hours ago, Brandon said:

I just opened the speakers since my pics didn't show the values.  Looks like I replaced all the caps with film/foil Audiocap Thetas, and wire wound non-inductive resistors and I did the parallel 10/2 ohm mod on the HF.  I remember testing them before the mods and it did smooth them out but they are still hard to listen to.  

 

I threw in some KennyG tonight just for fun.  It just hurts to listen to that!

Sounds like you might have a room issue then.  Too many reflective surfaces possibly?   What's in the room treatment wise?

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Well, the room is not optimal, no doubt.  it is about 12x30, with speakers on the 30ft wall, spaced 12ft apart, and toed in.  The toe has been adjusted many times.  

 

The ceiling is 8ft sheetrock, walls are painted wood panel, floor is a wood subfloor with carpet.  I have 1 18" Velodyne sitting next to each speaker.  Yes, I have no trouble knocking nails out of the walls.  :-)

 

I have acoustic software and a calibrated mic, but I think I found moving that mic even 1ft gives me a complete different response, leaving me up in arms as to how to tune it.  

 

I should also mention, and I may rightfully get shit for this, I run an HTPC for all my audio.  that is basically a PC on its side with a dedicated HDMI and vid card and audio card with optical out.  Technically I am feeding optical digital to the receiver so the DACs in the receiver do the work.  I am not fully convinced the Yamaha receiver is "all that".  It was a flagship piece but I think the sonics of my previous Denon might have been better.  I don't really think my amp is much of the issue.  It is not a Bryston, but it ain't Audiovox either.  That sucker weighs like 110lbs.  

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It sounds like you have a couple issues that aren't the speakers fault.  I have the original RF-7's as well and they can be played at concert+ volume without a hint of harshness or fatigue.  You can start with sound absorbing panels at the first reflection points on the walls.  That normally helps out quite a bit.  From there, if need be, you can try a different source and signal chain and see if that helps.  Yamaha's tend to be a little bright.  I really don't think you have a speaker issue.

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I started another thread but didn't get much response, but would be relevant here. I've had my RF7s for 10 years and while i wouldn't want to spend any money to upgrade or change to the RF7s i was wondering what mods people have done to these to "freshen" them up.

 

Does any maintenance after 10 years need to occur?

If i wanted to upgrade the xover how much would that be?

What other mods can be done?

Should the small cheap monster cables inside be replaced and better connected (mine seem to fall out now occasionally)

What about the foam insulation inside if it's been shifted around?

 

Just looking for people's opinions and history on what's been done.

i'm extremely happy with these speakers and my setup, but if i can tweak here and there for minimal additional cost i'm all for it!

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1 hour ago, schwock5 said:

I started another thread but didn't get much response, but would be relevant here. I've had my RF7s for 10 years and while i wouldn't want to spend any money to upgrade or change to the RF7s i was wondering what mods people have done to these to "freshen" them up.

 

Does any maintenance after 10 years need to occur?

If i wanted to upgrade the xover how much would that be?

What other mods can be done?

Should the small cheap monster cables inside be replaced and better connected (mine seem to fall out now occasionally)

What about the foam insulation inside if it's been shifted around?

 

Just looking for people's opinions and history on what's been done.

i'm extremely happy with these speakers and my setup, but if i can tweak here and there for minimal additional cost i'm all for it!

Do the resistor modification referenced above.  It'll cost you about 4 dollars and is the best bang for the buck mod you'll ever do.

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Contact a company such as Audio Advisor and discuss your issues with a sales two to get another point of view.   Electronics and cabling can be used to significantly flavor the sound of a system.   My experience with tubes is that the can significantly smooth out a harsh pair of speakers and they allow tube rolling to tweak until your heart is content.  Newer digital amps can be quite smooth as well.    I agree to start at your amp.  A new or different amp doesn't have to be expensive and may alleviate your problem (used or a great deal on new) .  Good luck and hope you can fix your issues without dumping the speakers.  I would FIRST ditch the yamaha receiver and go to an integrated Amplifier of whatever format you choose solid state, tube or digital.  That allow Will make a substantial difference IMO. 

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9 hours ago, Brandon said:

I have acoustic software and a calibrated mic, but I think I found moving that mic even 1ft gives me a complete different response, leaving me up in arms as to how to tune it.  

 

This is why two rivals, with diametrically opposite views on speaker design, Klipsch and Villchur, both were against equalizers, back in the day.

 

But, times have changed.  Audyssey has 8 microphone positions, and a proprietary "fuzzy logic" way of handling the results.  If a similar degree of EQ is needed from several positions, there is a high probability it will get some correction; if there is an idiosyncratic anomaly picked up by just one microphone, there is a low probability of correction.  Audyssey claims this is better than an average.   You can take a close-in sample of room acoustics if you listen alone, or opt for a medium size field for 3 or 4 listeners, or a big field. 

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