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How do I bring Forte ll`s to new level???


andym

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Hello,        

I purchased a pair of Forte ll about four years ago and left them stock with no mods for about 2 years. They are driven by a fully recapped Marantz 1070.I listen to strictly vinyl and use a Creek OBH 15 MK2 phono pre. They sounded great in their stock form and it was the most noticeable upgrade that I have so far made to my system. I decided to modify them 2 years ago. I took the speakers apart and sealed all the joints with Weldbound adhesive, braced the cabinets with 4 pieces of 1x2 wood braces. I then ordered the tweeter,mid diaphragm and crossover upgrade from Crites. The difference in sound was noticeable but not as much as I had expected. I did hear better bass but that was probably due to the bracing and not the Crites upgrade, as I was told by Mr.Crites himself.

I would like to bring the Forte ll up a level or two sonically but not sure what I should be upgrading. I have read nothing but praises for these speakers and I wish to keep them and bring them to another level. So what do I upgrade? The Marantz  1070? The Creek OBH 15? Hence the reason for my post. I was looking at the newer Marantz integrated such as the PM-8006 or the PM 15.I am not interested in a tube amp. As for phono stages, I’m looking at the Croft RIAA or the EAR 834p. Since I listen to mostly vinyl, should I upgrade the amp to one mentioned and use the onboard phono or should I keep the Marantz 1070 and get a better phono stage? What would be the greatest bang for my buck and the biggest improvement to the Forte ll's? Will I hear a difference if I move from a vintage Marantz to a more modern one?

The rest of my system is; Yamaha PF-800 turntable with a AT150MLX cartridge, cables and phono interconnect are Mogami.

Thanks to all who will reply.

 

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1 hour ago, andym said:

Will I hear a difference if I move from a vintage Marantz to a more modern one?

Hi, welcome to the forum :D 

Sorry, but have no recommendations :( but like to hear the answer on your (above) question also since I have a Marantz 1060, 2238B and a 2252B.  Love the sound of them :D  (And ... FYI, had a 1060 on my Fortes for a while ... got a VTA-70 tube amp and sold the 1060 ... never was really pleased with the tube amp ... sold it and got another 1060 a couple of weeks ago :)

 

Cheers, Emile

 

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Yes, I have experimented with speaker placement and it has made a difference.Voices are now dead center.Not interested in tubes since I can`t be bothered with rolling.But I have read that Forte ll sound really nice with tubes.This is the reason why I was looking at the Croft RIAA or EAR834p, so I can get the feel of tubes.

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Electronics won't do it; I've listened to Forte's driven by 20W/ch. receivers in very large rooms and didn't long for any more.

 

The mods you made to the speakers I would hardly classify as "incremental" improvement. I'd call it a placebo effect. Forte's are so highly acclaimed and such great performers, at such great pricing, that you're at point of diminishing returns.

 

I"d begin to look at room acoustics, if they can be improved at all-they may already be optimal.

 

I see your only next step as a fully horn loaded speaker!

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So, what I am making of your reply is that the Marantz 1070 and Creek OBH 15 is optimal for the Forte ll and anything more would be a waste of money.Somehow I find this very hard to believe.I'm not sure what you mean by my improvements having a placebo effect.

I'd like to hear from people who have moved from a vintage Marantz to modern or the 1070 with a better phono than the OBH 15 and how they would qualify the difference.

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2 hours ago, Peter P. said:

Electronics won't do it; I've listened to Forte's driven by 20W/ch. receivers in very large rooms and didn't long for any more.

 

The mods you made to the speakers I would hardly classify as "incremental" improvement. I'd call it a placebo effect. Forte's are so highly acclaimed and such great performers, at such great pricing, that you're at point of diminishing returns.

 

I"d begin to look at room acoustics, if they can be improved at all-they may already be optimal.

 

I see your only next step as a fully horn loaded speaker!

really? you don't think it possible to improve a Forte or Forte ll or a Chorus or a Chorus ll? Really? I would guess then that you have not tried very much or very hard. I would agree with you that a fully horn loaded rig would be a big step up though.

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Hello Moray James,

I`ve read many of your posts and value your opinion.What would you say is my weakest link and how can I improve upon it? Better integrated amp or better phono stage? The modern marantz integrated attract my attention because I've read that their onboard phono are exceptional. 

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5 hours ago, andym said:

Hello Moray James,

I`ve read many of your posts and value your opinion.What would you say is my weakest link and how can I improve upon it? Better integrated amp or better phono stage? The modern marantz integrated attract my attention because I've read that their onboard phono are exceptional. 

No4 asked the right question. "What exactly are you looking to improve?  

Bass, imaging, vocals etc?"  A Forte is going to have deeper as in lower response than a Chorus will. You can achieve deeper bass with a set of Forte by adding 2.5 ounces of dead weight to the centre of each of the passive radiators (on the inside). I have not used the Marantz so I have no opinion but a good amp will always help as will a good source. Chorus ll is more efficient and a fun loudspeaker if you have the room it is a good choice. I would take a look at the Crites Cornscala D. It all depends upon what you are looking for and what you like.

 

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10 hours ago, andym said:

Hello Moray James,

I`ve read many of your posts and value your opinion.What would you say is my weakest link and how can I improve upon it? Better integrated amp or better phono stage? The modern marantz integrated attract my attention because I've read that their onboard phono are exceptional. 

 

5 hours ago, moray james said:

No4 asked the right question. "What exactly are you looking to improve?  

Bass, imaging, vocals etc?"  A Forte is going to have deeper as in lower response than a Chorus will. You can achieve deeper bass with a set of Forte by adding 2.5 ounces of dead weight to the centre of each of the passive radiators (on the inside). I have not used the Marantz so I have no opinion but a good amp will always help as will a good source. Chorus ll is more efficient and a fun loudspeaker if you have the room it is a good choice. I would take a look at the Crites Cornscala D. It all depends upon what you are looking for and what you like.

 

There is only so much you can do with that speaker, any speaker, without just having to go with a new speaker.

Concentrate on room or electronics if you really want to stay with the Forte II.

 

The one thing many people say is they want to improve the sound but they can't identify WHAT they want to improve.  You want more sizzle, less sizzle, mids more pronounced and detailed, tighter bass.  Being more specific may help identify the weakest link in your chain.

 

Again though, you can only go so far until you have to upgrade.

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I think there is often a misconception about modification... many times modifications are NOT to improve a unit... but to change it. Tailor the sound, customize the response, tune to your own personal preference... these things are not really improvements, but changes.

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  My experience follows the Linn mantra. The largest improvements will come from the source. Whether turntable, tone arm, phono cartridge, and phono stage. 

  Set up is critical with phono. Look at cartridge alignment, VTA, VTF, record mats, clamps, counterweights, the list just keeps going. 

  A revealing speaker like yours will make all these tweaks easy to hear. You can dink around for a year getting the phono where you want it.

  I find my LS ii allow small changes in the front end to clearly be heard. Hiii were the same. The electronics in between the source and speakers need to be transparent enough.

  Do not know the Marantz unit. Signal to noise ratio and low level linearity are very important when output is milli watt level.

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What I would like to improve is imaging and clarity.I also like a huge sound stage but I got that when I moved to the Forte ll. If I can improve on that, fine. I mentioned in my initial post that I don`t wish to rid of the Forte's, they are staying. I've read that tubes will improve the sound of these Forte ll. Right now I am not interested in tubes but if the general consensus is that I need to get a tube amp to improve upon my system, I might start thinking about it. How about a better solid state amp? Say a Marantz PM-8006? Has anybody went from vintage Marantz to modern and what difference have you heard?

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You are getting a number of different opinions here. That is to be expected. Here are mine and they are in agreement with some of the above and at odds with some of the others.

In general the electronics are fine and by no means the weak link. Don't bother swapping them out. 

 

Regarding the imaging (and to an extent the clarity). Your speakers are probably fine. Take more time with the positioning of both the speakers and listening chair (and any nearby furniture). Beware this is not a quick process. Rather it is a tedious process with much repetition on a few tracks of music and systematically varying the angles, distances of the speakers . listening chair and relative distances to boundaries. Sometimes treatments can help, and you can mimic their potential effects with some pillows, blankets etc. 

 

Since the electronics are adequate and you want to keep the speakers, sometimes early reflections can disrupt the clarity. The above "experiments" can help with that also. 

 

Please keep in mind that these are not quick "experiments". Take your time and be systematic. 

Good luck,

-Tom

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if you have little to no experience in driver modification then you are best to stay with stock and find a speaker that already has the characteristics that you are looking for. So far as upgrades go you can improve your Forte significantly adding clarity detail and image by switching to a Crites titanium tweeter diaphragm and a Klipsch titanium mid diaphragm available from Simply speakers. Upgrade your network capacitors and you will have made a big step up. Both of those are direct drop in replacements. If you are good with doing that and you want to do more you can but you need to use specific materials and install them properly. The modifications that I do are primarily focused on reducing or eliminating noise usually in the form of resonance and reflections. If you can change your diaphragms and you are not phased by that and you want to make further improvements then you can get back to me in a PM and I can explain what you have as options and what is involved. Raising  your Forte up off the ground so that the centre of the mid horn is at your seated ear level will help with improving stage and image of the system. That generally requires a stand of 14 -16 inches depending upon your seating and your height so measure for your own exact needs.

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