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K402 TAD4002 and Peavey FH1 active blend


Delicious2

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On 10/29/2018 at 11:00 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Just to set the record as straight as I know how. What makes a speaker a "JUBE" is the bass bin and NOT the K-402. 

Interesting, I would have thought just the opposite. I will adjust my thinking accordingly. Thanks for the info!

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On 11/7/2018 at 12:22 PM, Delicious2 said:

jumpering the Phoenix side from ground to minus seemed to help and Chris' tuning definitely helped but I'm not satisfied yet.  If I swap out the amps and swap with the non-phoenix Xilica - the 4080 - I should narrow it down to the most noisy part.  I'd like it to be at least as quiet as my K402/BMS/Khorn blend which isn't silent but is much quieter.

 I hate hiss  but I have to admit when the noise floor or hiss is louder, when you get into the mid range and high end the sound is spectacular with clarity and dynamics .

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On 11/5/2018 at 10:51 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

ALL bass shy, including the Khorn and Jubillee if your goal is flat to 20 Hz., which ALL of them need help with using a Subwoofer as a solution.

Although after putting in Roy's 32 Hz. boost in my Jubilees, I felt very little need for a subwoofer on MUSIC (still need one for movie special effects, however).

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On 11/8/2018 at 12:54 PM, Delicious2 said:

thanks Chris I'll try that.  Still wondering though,  is the Xilica like some other A/D devices where too low of an input level truncates some bit depth (and decreases fidelity?).  What if we put a line level(s) into the Xilicas and controlled the volume afterward before the amps?  Perhaps I just don't understand how they work.

The Xilica is a full 24 bit A/D and D/A processor. It does not truncate bit depth dependent on level. 0dbFS on them is +20 dBu. Remember these are made mostly for live sound speaker management where signals are very dynamic. In my home setup I still like to add input and output gain to mine to utilize more of their dynamic range. And make the meters dance a little:)

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On 11/12/2018 at 12:09 PM, babadono said:

The Xilica is a full 24 bit A/D and D/A processor. It does not truncate bit depth dependent on level. 0dbFS on them is +20 dBu. Remember these are made mostly for live sound speaker management where signals are very dynamic. In my home setup I still like to add input and output gain to mine to utilize more of their dynamic range. And make the meters dance a little:)

Thanks babadono.  If I understand you correctly,  the Xilica doesn't truncate bit depth (dropping the LSB) at low input levels so at least in terms of having full digital resolution it shouldn't matter if input averages 1 dBu or 10 dBu as long as it doesn't overload.  That of course doesn't answer the question of whether it sounds best or quietest in a certain range.  I was reading elsewhere that we should have gain control over each channel at the amp itself for proper gain matching/low noise with these active setups.  I don't have that now with most of my amp channels, but, could use 4 channels of questionable fidelity that do have volume/gain control to experiment.  Psychologically I guess I would like it if the meters "danced" 😃

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Update:  Tired of the overstuffed living room, I pulled the K402/BMS off of the Khorn bass bins and put the K402/TAD combo with stands instead, angling them down at the "2" mark on the stands.  I carried the K402/BMS down the cellar stairs to the home theater and the Peaveys will follow (carefully).  I reprogrammed the Xilica 4080 so the 2 in 4 out arrangement has Chris' latest settings for the TADs on top of his latest settings for the Khorn bass bin.  It sounds good but not quite right (a bit sibilant for example).    Not as good as the BMS/Khorn combo but probably needs some more of Chris' magic applied for this specific new blend  Will measure soon.

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On a side note I had a chance for a brief audition of a very different more mainline audiophile and much more expensive system.  I visited a local guy last night with a system based around Magico Q5s with the big CAT monoblock tubes and dArtzeel preamp.  Not sure what he was using for digital sources but I got to hear a cut I'm very familiar with - Steven Wilson's opening from PT's Stupid Dream "Even Less" - very dynamic, well recorded prog rock.

 

Initial impression was that there was more high frequency energy than I was used to.  I quickly got accustomed to that.  There was great detail and a sense of being able to hear into the mix.  I immediately missed that dynamic/immediate feeling of the K402 - for lack of a better word "live" sound.  The Magicos in a less than optimal room seemed focused, perhaps "polite" with excellent timbre/tonality.  The owner volunteered that he wasn't getting the room pressurizing/vibrating bass that this music calls for in this open space with few enclosing walls.

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It really helps to have amps with gain controls.  I think you would find they would be turned down significantly.  You could take more gain up front before the amps.  This will give you a less noisy setup, and you would most likely see your processor LEDs dancing as you like.

 

I set my amp gains to allow my preamp to get into its sweet spot.  Just opening the amp gains enough to play as loud as I would ever listen.  I found this to be a big advantage.

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23 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

Update:  Tired of the overstuffed living room, I pulled the K402/BMS off of the Khorn bass bins and put the K402/TAD combo with stands instead, angling them down at the "2" mark on the stands.  I carried the K402/BMS down the cellar stairs to the home theater and the Peaveys will follow (carefully).  I reprogrammed the Xilica 4080 so the 2 in 4 out arrangement has Chris' latest settings for the TADs on top of his latest settings for the Khorn bass bin.  It sounds good but not quite right (a bit sibilant for example).    Not as good as the BMS/Khorn combo but probably needs some more of Chris' magic applied for this specific new combo.  Will measure soon.

 

I sent Chris REW measurement files of the K402/TAD/Khorn blend both Xilica settings that combined previous PEQs for those drivers and zeroed out settings.  He got back to me with an initial Xilica settings file to try.  It's a lot of fun plugging in Chris' new settings file on the fly while a song is playing when sitting with the laptop at the LP and hearing the transformation almost instantly!  Now if I can just leave work and get home and try it...

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On 11/9/2018 at 6:01 PM, wvu80 said:

 I hate hiss  but I have to admit when the noise floor or hiss is louder, when you get into the mid range and high end the sound is spectacular with clarity and dynamics .

Not sure why I'm only picking up on this now.  This hasn't been my experience.  Maybe you can expand on this wvu80.  The only thing that comes to mind is that when the noise floor or hiss is louder you may be have it "cranked up" and so the sound is spectacular for that reason...

 

I set aside the Xilica 8080 for now and am just using the (so far) quieter 4080 in the living room.  Trying different changes in gain structure including using amps with volume controls I can't say I heard any advantage to having the amps turned down and the AVP up higher so that the Xilica input and output signal indicator lights came on.  Different settings didn't seem to make much difference in the noise floor, even increasing the Xilica's own input and output gains.  I did find out that once I had the Xilica signal lights and software meters dancing it didn't take much more input to hit the red lamps.

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16 minutes ago, Delicious2 said:

Not sure why I'm only picking up on this now.  This hasn't been my experience.  Maybe you can expand on this wvu80.  The only thing that comes to mind is that when the noise floor or hiss is louder you may be have it "cranked up" and so the sound is spectacular for that reason...

I'm really dating myself right now.  I love the new digital stuff where the hiss can be electronically removed.

 

No, I'm going back to the last century in the days of the old cassette decks that had tape hiss.  Dolby was new then and took out the hiss at low volume.  When I listened with Dolby enabled the hiss was gone but so was the dynamics, the HF that made music sound good.  With Dolby disabled there was more hiss but a better high end sound. 

 

The point I'm making is I like a more live! sound and I didn't hear the hiss when the volume was cranked.

 

These are the good 'ol days.  :emotion-21:

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On 11/17/2018 at 11:11 PM, wvu80 said:

I'm really dating myself right now.  I love the new digital stuff where the hiss can be electronically removed.

 

No, I'm going back to the last century in the days of the old cassette decks that had tape hiss.  Dolby was new then and took out the hiss at low volume.  When I listened with Dolby enabled the hiss was gone but so was the dynamics, the HF that made music sound good.  With Dolby disabled there was more hiss but a better high end sound. 

 

The point I'm making is I like a more live! sound and I didn't hear the hiss when the volume was cranked.

 

These are the good 'ol days.  :emotion-21:

 

I'm old enough to remember those days too.  Recorded a lot of vinyl to Maxell and Fuji chrome/metal tapes with Dolby.

 

These are the good 'ol days indeed!

 

This thread may have a pause while I focus on the TADs/K402 on the Khorn bass bins.  When I start on topic here again it will have morphed into the BMS 4592s/K402 on the FH-1s in the cellar/mancave/HT

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's some initial pics of the K402 BMS 4592ND Peavey FH-1s in the HT/mancave.  Still got the old Acarian Alon center in there for some reason.  Xilica 8080 over on the floor on the left temporarily and an Anthem MCA525 five channel amp.  Unlike when they were on the Khorn bass bins, I'm running the BMS 4592NDs with their passive mid to tweet xover, so, just 2 way out of the Xilica.

K402 BMS 4592 Peavey FH-1 in HT both.jpg

K402 BMS 4592 Peavey FH-1 in HT right.jpg

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11 hours ago, Tarheel TJ said:

I know this setup is still very much a work in progress, but what are your overall impressions of the TAD beryllium vs. the BMS co-axial?  Which produces better highs?

HeHe,  that's the $3500 dollar question isn't it?  I certainly had a chance to compare them well tuned through the Xilica by Chris not at the same time but in sequence - first the BMS active 3 way on the Khorn bins (no BMS passive mid/tweet network connected) for a couple weeks then the TAD beryllium 2-way through the same source, pre-pro, Xilica and amps.

The cynic or purist might say that such a comparison is obscured or even invalidated by the extra A/D-D/A conversion of the Xilica or its inherent sound imprint or my poor choice of cables or all 3.

 I'm not saying that :0)

  • I will say that my goal is highs that are well integrated with the music (don't call attention to themselves - as in -"listen to those highs!")
  • Highs that are true to the recording (e.g. piercing if the recording is, sibilant if the recording is, well balanced and revealing of treble instrument timbre - if the recording is)
  • I'm aware that I'm probably in a transition period of training my mind/ear to be satisfied with less hyped high frequencies (happening whether I like it or not as I age)
  • In the "wouldn't it be nice" department I'd like a soundscape that frequently has "air" - that elusive sense that the performers are in my room or I've been transported to the venue.
In the recent sequence of listening the TADs approached these goals best.  
 
I'm looking forward to tuning the BMS in the HT room trying both passive xover and full 3 way active.

 

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About 6 years ago.....................I had similar problems to solve

 

CJcornerStackWeb.jpg

NewStack2012web.jpg

SKstackWeb.jpg

This last one illustrates the "7 foot ceiling BLUES" in a big way, plus, it's hilarious to the right Klipschead!

Edited by ClaudeJ1
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I love it! It’s not a speaker if you don’t have to pop a ceiling tile!

 

As for the bass issue in the FH-1...

 

I was blown away by how low the K33 “sounds” in these bins. Actually checked to see if my sub was on.

 

K43’s left me very flat.

 

Kappa 15C’s “sound” as low as the K33’s but MAN do they KICK like none of the others.

 

I don’t know if it is the higher efficiency of the Kappa 15C, but it blows the cobwebs out of everything I try it in AND the midrange punches hard.

 

 

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8 hours ago, geoff. said:

I don’t know if it is the higher efficiency of the Kappa 15C, but it blows the cobwebs out of everything I try it in AND the midrange punches hard.

 

Well that is my favorite driver in the "bang for buck" department.

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10 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Well that is my favorite driver in the "bang for buck" department.

ago
19 hours ago, geoff. said:

I don’t know if it is the higher efficiency of the Kappa 15C, but it blows the cobwebs out of everything I try it in AND the midrange punches hard.

 

I will be using Bob's CW1526CF woofers in my FH-1s.

 

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2 hours ago, HPower said:
ago
 

 

I will be using Bob's CW1526CF woofers in my FH-1s.

 

That is a good one also. Just make sure your cross at 80-100 Hz. to your subwoofer. Max woofer excursion in that short horn occurs at 80 Hz. regardless of which driver from the useable list,  but the Xmax and power handling of the Crites should get you to 125 db before you run out! You will like that short horn, it's one of the best and one of the cheapest.

 

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