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Advice for Beginners....


ODS123

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My recommendation to beginner audiophiles coming to this forum for advice.

 

IMHO, your audio system quality is 99.9% about speakers, their placement, and room acoustics.  And if you’re considering Klipsch speakers, you’ve made a great choice.  They’re efficient (so you can use a cheap, modest-powered amplifier) dynamic, accurate, and durable.

 

But the audible differences made by rest of your components, including amplifier cd player, DAC, cables/ power cords, power conditioner, etc.. are negligible.  So negligible, in fact, that there is considerable debate whether they are audible at all.  There was once a $10,000 reward offered to any golden eared audiophile who could consistently distinguish b/w two S/S amplifiers.  No one claimed the prize.  So keep this in mind when deciding how to apportion your funds across all pieces of your system.

 

Yes, people offer strong, highly opinionated anecdotal accounts here of how they changed X, then heard Y,  but credible, empirical evidence that these differences were not merely the result of expectation bias is sparse at best.

 

Put another way, just how relevant could such differences be if there is ANY debate at all about their existence?  If they were audible and they mattered they surely would be plain to the ear of every (non-hearing impaired) music lover.

 

That said, there are still good reasons to be selective about gear.  Chose what offers the features you want (for me that meant tone controls, mono switch, wattage meters) and the look/ build-quality you want.  But set aside any notions that you must go about choosing amplifiers, cables, cd players, etc. the way a wine connoisseur goes about choosing wine, with the audio salesman playing role of trusted sommelier.

 

some links worth perusing:

http://ethanwiner.com/audiophoolery.html

 

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/

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Did you really just put amplifiers and CD players in the same sentence with wire?

 

There was once a DBT comparison between a $200 Pioneer receiver and a pair of $14K Mark Levinson Mononlocks. Listeners couldn’t tell a difference. The only thing revealed in that test was the inherent flaw in using DBT for audio.  

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I think that there is merit to the basic argument.  The basic idea, I believe, is that a lot of people focus on the least effective means to increase their sound quality.  I think this is because there is no "mental map" of what's the most important factors and what's the least important.  This is a common problem, and one that I've dealt with effectively in my career as an engineer, manager, etc.

 

I'm not sure that we'll ever get consensus on the exact weighting, but at least some idea of the important factors to keep in the mind's eye might help those that do not have a good overall picture would help.  Below you'll see a strawman hierarchy of those factors to help those that might be over-focused on less important factors, in approximate importance order (which of course is debatable)...but the overall picture is still important.

 

I can say that I've seen far too much spending and emphasis on electronics to the obvious detriment of loudspeaker, room, and source music quality factors.  Maybe something like the hierarchy below might help those that have trouble understanding the relative importance of all the big-hitter factors in one chart.

 

2083241884_SoundQualityHierarchy.thumb.gif.1457a77803a258c8233f91d20d4cb258.gif

 

Chris

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Everyone hears differently. The "ear-brain-perception-emotional connection" hand-offs we do when we listen to music are not defined, nor are they measurable. 

 

With me, it's which components best emotionally connect me to the music I love.

 

Doesn't have to measure the best.

 

Doesn't have to cost the most.

 

Just has to facilitate that intangible "connection" I seek and which may well be different for others.

 

So my advice to new audio enthusiasts is to listen to lots of live music performances and remember how they make you feel.

 

Then listen to lots of audio stuff and see which components enable you to best connect to that feeling, that emotional connection.

 

Might be tubes, transistors, horns, electrostats, analog, digital, expensive wire, cheap wire - makes no difference as long as the sum total speaks to you.

 

Try to listen to prospective additions in you room and system.

 

Last, and most important, trust your own ears.

 

Just my opinion.

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15 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Everyone hears differently.

Actually, Toole and Olive (JBL/Harman) have shown pretty convincingly that this isn't really the case when talking about evaluating sound quality of a sound reproduction system.  Put a collection of loudspeakers in a room for people to listen to, without them knowing which speaker they are listening to at each trial, and then repeat that test in another room with different electronics, etc., and the same rank order of the loudspeakers will appear, almost without rank reversals.

 

I can post the links to this material, but what I've found is that there are those that believe their hearing to be "more blessed than the average Joe" and will take exception, without actually reading and considering that this fact keeps coming up, again and again.

 

The only time that the loudspeakers don't wind up in the same order of listener preference is when the listener has some sort of hearing loss.

 

Chris

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That’s a great chart - did you make that?

 

I can’t find anything in any of your comments that I disagree with. 

 

Did Toole and Olive list the loudspeakers they used? I do know Toole did listening tests that showed loudspeakers with a smooth power response were typically preferred. 

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45 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Actually, Toole and Olive (JBL/Harman) have shown pretty convincingly that this isn't really the case when talking about evaluating sound quality of a sound reproduction system.  Put a collection of loudspeakers in a room for people to listen to, without them knowing which speaker they are listening to at each trial, and then repeat that test in another room with different electronics, etc., and the same rank order of the loudspeakers will appear, almost without rank reversals.

 

I can post the links to this material, but what I've found is that there are those that believe their hearing to be "more blessed than the average Joe" and will take exception, without actually reading and considering that this fact keeps coming up, again and again.

 

The only time that the loudspeakers don't wind up in the same order of listener preference is when the listener has some sort of hearing loss.

 

Chris

Appreciate your perspective, Chris.

 

In my opinion, though, we are talking about apples and oranges.

 

I am talking about how a particular component connects me emotionally to the music. Has nothing to do with measurements and, in any event, I'm not talking about short term comparative testing.

 

How does the component work for the long term? Am I listening to more music, or less?

 

Just my opinion. 

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1 hour ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Everyone hears differently. The "ear-brain-perception-emotional connection" hand-offs we do when we listen to music are not defined, nor are they measurable. 

 

This statement is true if you put it in the context of preference. 

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I'm pretty sure that the speakers that Harman used were identified in some of their JAES articles.  Some of the reports, I'm sure, do not identify all of them.  I believe that Toole talks about this in his latest edition of his book, and I believe you can Google to find articles written by him that talk about this. 

 

As far as the hierarchy is concerned, that's pretty much what I've found first hand and also considering what others-whose opinions that I respect also say.  I'm sure that there are refinements that could be made but the bottom line is that if someone is focusing exclusively on things like amplifiers, etc. they'll likely overlook that they're leaving something on the table that's much higher bang-for-buck, and therefore spending money in ways that really don't reflect proportional increases in sound quality as the goal (i.e., there are a lot of people that drive automobiles that are very expensive for the image that they believe it gives them, and really not the quality or reliability of transportation, etc.). 

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My hearing is blessed more than the average joe.

 

I've tuned my system... just like I tune my instruments... by ear.

 

For sure one can use electronic aides to move you along more quickly and save you monies, but that doesn't mean one can not make inroads to great audio playback in that fashion only.

 

To be frank, I've been slightly underwhelmed at times by some supposedly "corrected" systems because response has been tuned so flat that the experience itself becomes flat. I find peaks and valleys to be closely tied to forward and pushed back areas of the playback making it much a more dimensional experience. Surely there are times I would like a little more high or a little more low (etc), but I personally don't correct to try and artificially induce that.

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If you guys would listen to Chris, you can save yourselves a good amount of money.

 

Although Toole does not give all the details, he found that listeners (mostly and without going to extreme examples) preferred speakers that had 1) low frequency extension and had a 2) controlled directivity (on-axis and off-axis frequency were comparable). You should also note that Roy also emphasizes the benefits of controlled directivity.

 

I would suggest doing a Google search on Toole and finding some of his longer youtube videos (especially the presentation at McGill University). He will lay out the overall issues. Keep in mind there are some subtle points that need to be carefully thought about and understood.

 

Before some of you start bashing Toole, I will say that he was a respected auditory scientist (I know, I used to be in the field). 

 

Good luck, -Tom

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13 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

Before some of you start bashing Toole, I will say that he was a respected auditory scientist (I know, I used to be in the field). 

 

Who's bashing Toole? I have the utmost respect for Toole and Olive.

 

I'm only trying to convey what's important to me and how I select my components.

 

Just my opinion.

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I will add this. I, like most people have listened to and loved music most of my life and have always had what most people would consider a better than average system. But when my wonderful wife convinced me to give Klipsch a shot everything changed. (She grew up in Hope and knew many Klipsch employees) I guess like Woody Harrelson said in white men can't jump I was listening to music but not really hearing it. Now when I listen to music that's all I'm doing i give it 100 percent attention. And I have found my lascalas begged me to listen to a much broader range of different types of music. Stringed instruments really shine as do certain drums. I don't know if the things I'm talking about here can be measured or not but Klipsch has made me love and appreciate all kinds of music I would never have given a chance otherwise. 

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I've been a bit reticent to share the following--for reasons that you can probably figure out.  But if you know me at all, please realize that I share this because I want others to hear what I hear now:

 

Recently---within the last couple of months--I integrated a much better compression driver in the center K-402-MEH, and then went about flattening both the SPL and phase of not only the center, but I also completely revamped the Jubilee settings with the same lower order Bessel crossover filters (which have 180 degree second-order filter phase growth on the bass bins), then I flattened the SPL even further--perhaps to ±1.5 dB from 30 Hz - 20 kHz, not counting the drop outs for room modes and microphone-boundary cancellations. 

 

When I then put on my favorite Blu-Ray music discs (i.e., really good multichannel recordings of Beethoven symphonies, Bach choral, the Yellowjackets, etc. ) I was just stunned by the dramatic increase in listening involvement...with the discs that I already own.  It was like I'd never heard them before.  I sat there and listened to every disc that I put on--all the way through.  That's something that I can say has been difficult to do before now.  Now, it's amazing every time I turn the system on to listen to a another disc.  I've arrived at the threshold.

 

My bar has been pretty high to date...but when this happened, well, I figure that it's worthy of sharing how to do it.  This recent experience is something that I really wish others could hear, too.  (Send me a PM if you're ever through the DFW area, and drop in for a listen.)  Even Roy would get goosebumps. 

 

For almost everyone on the forum, I figure that their pocketbooks can't really stand doing it the "old audiophile way", which is to pick and peck through an endless march of stuff until some magic somehow appears--spontaneously.  I've found that there is a much lower cost and much more effective way to get there.  It does involve measuring stuff and having sufficient adjustments available (via DSP crossover, etc.) to correct the response of the system, but it won't cost you ~$20K to get there by any stretch of the imagination.  I don't believe that you can buy this kind of performance--at least not under $100k USD.

 

So when I mention that there are more important things to pay attention to, and less important ones with which to save your money by avoiding them and instead achieving the experience I described above, that is what I'm referring to.

 

Chris

Edited by Chris A
corrected the phase growth
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4 hours ago, Khornukopia said:

A beginner should try to start with the best speaker they might ever wish for, and save themselves all the trading up hassles.

Sorry, but think "trading up" is a lot of fun :D  Pretty hard to select Jubes/MCM's as a "beginner." Went from KG's to Heresy's, Forte's, Cornwall's, KPT-904's etc.  The "journey" was very enjoyable. :) 

Cheers, Emile

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12 minutes ago, Emile said:

Sorry, but think "trading up" is a lot of fun :D  Pretty hard to select Jubes/MCM's as a "beginner." Went from KG's to Heresy's, Forte's, Cornwall's, KPT-904's etc.  The "journey" was very enjoyable. :) 

Cheers, Emile

 

Yes you have a good point there. It actually is a lot of fun the try out different parts, speakers, electronics and various combinations of the components and settings. I also enjoy reading about all of the members experiences and opinions, and applying some of the good advice from the Klipsch forum.

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35 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

 

Yes you have a good point there. It actually is a lot of fun the try out different parts, speakers, electronics and various combinations of the components and settings. I also enjoy reading about all of the members experiences and opinions, and applying some of the good advice from the Klipsch forum.

Especially speaker cables.

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