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Advice for Beginners....


ODS123

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Any answer from you is not won

1 minute ago, jimjimbo said:

Sorry I didn't answer right away, but I just got back from the K-Mart audio department.  ( why does this not surprise me?)

 

Perhaps you'd get more "credible" answers (according to you), if you were less condescending in your questions.

 

Any answer I might get from  you is not one that is not welcome anyway.

 

But thanks for playing, better luck next time.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Sorry I didn't answer right away, but I just got back from the K-Mart audio department.  

 

 

Hey now I used to drool over the Panasonic system (with Thruster speakers) that they had on the end-cap display. Bad *** it was. They also carried the "higher end" Soundesigns that I longed for.....when I was 12

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20 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

If all amplifiers sound the same, whey aren't the people who believe that drivel just using some cheap 200.00 receiver from the local big box store?

 

When someone says they don't hear a worthwhile difference between what they have heard and some other much higher priced amp, it may not mean that they want to use a cheaper one. It may just mean they are happy with what they have. 

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On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:09 PM, Khornukopia said:

… I also enjoy reading about all of the members experiences and opinions, and applying some of the good advice from the Klipsch forum.

 

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:46 PM, jimjimbo said:

 

Especially speaker cables.

 

A copper atom cried out "I keep losing my electrons." His atomic pals in the speaker wire insulation ask "Are you sure?" The copper one screams "Yes, I am Positive."

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7 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

 

When someone says they don't hear a worthwhile difference between what they have heard and some other much higher priced amp, it may not mean that they want to use a cheaper one. It may just mean they are happy with what they have. 

 

That's completely understandable. I have heard amps that I liked (lusted after?) but couldn't justify the price. But I wouldn't deny the superiority to what I had at the time.

 

Shakey

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What I would say to a beginner is to go and listen to a few systems before buying anything.  Learn about equipment.  Hang with someone that you can learn from and that can explain differences in what you are hearing.

 

Take your equipment outside for an afternoon and hear what it really sounds like.

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1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

That's completely understandable. I have heard amps that I liked (lusted after?) but couldn't justify the price. But I wouldn't deny the superiority to what I had at the time.

Fwiw, I think you need to take price out of the equation and look how they rate on Benchmark tests. Fwiw, there isn't supposed to be much difference in Solid State amps that measure the same unless they were designed to color the music/material.....Fwiw,  it's in the processor where you can compare differences once the power requirements for the speakers are met.

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1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said:

Fwiw, I think you need to take price out of the equation and look how they rate on Benchmark tests. Fwiw, there isn't supposed to be much difference in Solid State amps that measure the same unless they were designed to color the music/material.....Fwiw,  it's in the processor where you can compare differences once the power requirements for the speakers are met.

 

Respectfully disagree. Measurements won't tell me s&*t about how the amplifier will actually sound in my system. And I have heard two comparable SS amps (Plinius and McCormack) sound radically different, but both very good.

 

As far as price goes, I just replaced a tube amplifier with another one that costs half as much. The cheaper one sounded better to me. Power ratings were almost identical.

 

So as I alluded to in my earlier post, price isn't automatically an indicator of the better product.

 

Shakey

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1 minute ago, Shakeydeal said:

Respectfully disagree. Measurements won't tell me s&*t about how the amplifier will actually sound in my system.

Sure, but the people who design the amps rely on their measurements and there are industry standards. Fwiw, I learned a lot about this in the Audio Theory section at AVSForum where they had some informative engineering types post. 

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Shakey's got a good point. Dr Amar Bose tried the higher specs routine on both speakers and amps. What he found in reality, was they mostly sounded horrible. That's what he used as ammo to design his original 901's back in 1968. He found that the room and how the speakers reacted to it was most important. I can't tell you how many speakers I've auditioned over the years, Magnepan was one, that I thought sounded dull and lifeless to my ears. Everybody seemed to love them. Maybe it was the electronics, maybe the room, who knows? I didn't like them . Then on the other end, Everytime I heard heritage Klipsch, or Altec, I loved the punchy sound, especially the voice. Same with B&W 801/802 . The biggest thing I notice about low end components is their cruddy preamp section. It goes from ok to too loud in one step.

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Responses have been interesting thus far.  ..To those who contend they hear huge and significant differences b/w Solid State amplifiers that share similar measurements I would ask how are you comparing them??  Are they with the same speakers, same listening environment and with volume levels precisely matched??  Are they compared in quick succession? 

 

To beginners:  

 

My contention that electronics sound mostly the same aside, there are still differences to be considered when choosing amplifiers ( Pre/Pwr Separates, Integrateds, or AVRs).  For example:

  • if you listen at low levels, do both channels attenuate the same as you reduce the volume?  I had a Bryston Pre-amp that frustratingly had a severe imbalance.  When I reduce volume to very quiet levels (for early am listening, for ex.) I would have to turn the balance knob half-way to the right to equalize the volume. Otherwise, the left channel would continue playing after the right has been fully attenuated.   I even sent it back to Bryston to have it adjusted.  ..Upon return, it was improved but not perfect.  ...I also had a Peachtree Nova with this problem and it didn't have a balance knob.  ..Hence, I sold it.  Balance controls are a must, imho.
  • How quiet is the amp?  ..With highly efficient Klipsch speakers, it can a problem if your amp has a loud noise floor.  ..This wouldn't be a problem during normal listening, but it's an aggravation to hear buzz/ hum b/w songs.  Remarkably, my expensive Bryston combo and Peachtree had the loudest levels.  ..My Onkyo AVR is better than both. My Mac is dead quiet.
  • Feature set:  To my thinking, the practical usefulness of tone controls/ balance/ input-leveling/ and a mono switch make them indispensable. Many songs are badly mixed; a slight adjustment can make an otherwise unlistenable song enjoyable and worth keeping.  I wouldn't even consider an amp w/out them.  Golden eared audiophiles  (but not electrical engineers) will suggest that the few signal breaks needed to incorporate these features will damage the sound.  ..But I suggest you think hard on this contention.  Ever notice how many signal breaks there are in a mixing board??  ..I'm sure Dark Side of The Moon was mixed on a board with hundreds and hundreds of signal breaks, yet it remains a magnificent sounding recording.  .My McIntosh Integrated has tone controls, balance, and mono switch,, but you don't need to spend nearly that much.  My Onkyo AVR has them too,  as do most AVR's.   

 

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Quote

Are they with the same speakers, same listening environment and with volume levels precisely matched??  Are they compared in quick succession? 

 

Same speakers in same environment for sure. That last one is fraught with disaster. Yes, you can pull your hair out listening to snippets of music and switching back and forth. And you will surely say that if the difference cannot be identified with 30 seconds of music played back to back, then there is no difference. Classic objectivist argument......

 

I contend that that is not the way we listen to music. Hopefully you listen to music for pleasure and enjoyment and are not one of those OB geeks that routinely listen to test tones. Long term listening will bear out which is the component you prefer. And sometimes the difference truly is either negligible or not perceived at all. But sometimes you clearly enjoy the music with one piece of equipment more than another. Now this can be a blind test if you like. You don't have to be influenced by the brand name, badge on the front, or how much it costs. But "quick succession"? Nope, not the way to do it.

 

Shakey

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26 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

Same speakers in same environment for sure. That last one is fraught with disaster. Yes, you can pull your hair out listening to snippets of music and switching back and forth. And you will surely say that if the difference cannot be identified with 30 seconds of music played back to back, then there is no difference. Classic objectivist argument......

 

I contend that that is not the way we listen to music. Hopefully you listen to music for pleasure and enjoyment and are not one of those OB geeks that routinely listen to test tones. Long term listening will bear out which is the component you prefer. And sometimes the difference truly is either negligible or not perceived at all. But sometimes you clearly enjoy the music with one piece of equipment more than another. Now this can be a blind test if you like. You don't have to be influenced by the brand name, badge on the front, or how much it costs. But "quick succession"? Nope, not the way to do it.

 

Shakey

 

Okay comparing in quick succession may be difficult, but how about precise volume matching? Otherwise, the louder amp - even if by just 3db or so - usually gets the nod as sounded better.  And listening long term is fraught with challenges too.  Our hearing can change daily based on allergies which cause swelling and fluid build-up in the inner ear.  Stress can affect our hearing as well.   My ability to relax and fully "hear" the music waxes and wanes with stress levels that change on an hourly/ daily/ weekly basis.  ..So I urge beginners to weigh both of these view points and decide which makes more sense to them.  Compare amps side by side with precisely matched volume levels, or compare over months on end.  And how would you do this w/out actually owning both amps?  And beginners should also know that these differences people claim to hear b/w amplifiers do not correlate with any measured parameter.  ..This is not the case with speakers.  

 

And yes, I listen to music for pleasure.  I have thousands of CDs and LPs.    By comparison, most (I can't say all) golden-eared audiophiles I have known have had MUCH smaller music libraries.  

 

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Things that measure the same, sound the same. 

 

Things that don’t measure the same also sound the same. 

 

Things that don’t measure the same, may not sound the same, but will be fiddled with until they do.

 

All three are apparently true!

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46 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Okay comparing in quick succession may be difficult, but how about precise volume matching? Otherwise, the louder amp - even if by just 3db or so - usually gets the nod as sounded better.  And listening long term is fraught with challenges too.  Our hearing can change daily based on allergies which cause swelling and fluid build-up in the inner ear.  Stress can affect our hearing as well.   My ability to relax and fully "hear" the music waxes and wanes with stress levels that change on an hourly/ daily/ weekly basis.  ..So I urge beginners to weigh both of these view points and decide which makes more sense to them.  Compare amps side by side with precisely matched volume levels, or compare over months on end.  And how would you do this w/out actually owning both amps?  And beginners should also know that these differences people claim to hear b/w amplifiers do not correlate with any measured parameter.  ..This is not the case with speakers.  

 

And yes, I listen to music for pleasure.  I have thousands of CDs and LPs.    By comparison, most (I can't say all) golden-eared audiophiles I have known have had MUCH smaller music libraries.  

 

 

Please bear in mind that my comments are directed to beginning audio enthusiasts who are interested in 2-channel audio. Home theater is not my interest.

 

We agree on one point - beginners should listen and make up their own mind.

 

I urge beginners to listen to as much gear as they can. Having a good audio dealer nearby helps.

 

If no dealer, get to know any local audio technicians. If you buy used, have your technician check things out.

 

Get to know any local audio folks who buy and sell lots of gear. Maybe they belong to a local audio group that meets regularly? If so, it's a good way to listen to a wide variety of gear - maybe even get some reasonable deals.

 

Bottom line, gain experience and learn to trust your own ears.

 

As an aside, I also have thousands of records and CDs. Also the full libraries of Tidal and Deezer available for streaming. :)

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3 hours ago, Deang said:

,Things that measure the same, sound the same. 

 

Things that don’t measure the same also sound the same. 

 

Things that don’t measure the same, may not sound the same, but will be fiddled with until they do.

 

All three are apparently true!

They are on the internet. Here is the cycle:

1) Check Google for best ratings

2) Go to a forum and see what they say about a couple of choices

3) Are you convinced spending more money on power options is justifiable?

4) Make decision and purchase crap online

5)Go to forum with any setup issues

 

What I found surprising is that no one on the Klipsch Owners Thread over at AVS ever measured how loud they listened to their favorite material to see if/when it distorted, and those that purchased external amps did so on the fear of not having enough Headroom. That's my take.

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