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Advice for Beginners....


ODS123

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14 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I stand corrected. My point was that  it was an opinion and not published or peer reviewed. Given this thread is entitled "advice for beginners,"  and I really don't wish to pursue it any further except to say beginners shouldn't feel they need an external amp to drive their speakers based on who has the most "likes."  People who follow these forums usually have no problem spending other people's money. 

Of course it was an opinion, just like most everything else around here.

 

No, beginners should not feel as if they need an external amplifier, but nor should they be told that it doesn't really matter what they buy because it doesn't make any difference.

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8 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I stand corrected. My point was that  it was an opinion and not published or peer reviewed. Given this thread is entitled "advice for beginners,"  and I really don't wish to pursue it any further except to say beginners shouldn't feel they need an external amp to drive their speakers based on who has the most "likes."  People who follow these forums usually have no problem spending other people's money. 

No one "needs" anything.  Regardless of how many "likes" I have I have used receivers, integrated amps, and external amps with separate preamps and the latter has been the best sounding in my experience.  That doesn't make one or the other necessary,  it merely expresses an opinion on which sounds best.

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3 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I stand corrected. My point was that  it was an opinion and not published or peer reviewed. Given this thread is entitled "advice for beginners,"  and I really don't wish to pursue it any further except to say beginners shouldn't feel they need an external amp to drive their speakers based on who has the most "likes."  People who follow these forums usually have no problem spending other people's money. 

 

With respect, running an excellent integrated amp or separates (tubes or solid state) does not mean breaking the bank.

 

It does mean taking the time and effort to do research and not buy into the "all amps sound the same" mantra.

 

My main systems would probably be described by many as "upper middle class" - not crazy "uber high end expensive" - and, by "synergistically" (I'll continue to use that word ;) ) matching components, my system absolutely connects me to the music.

 

My living room system was put together for less than $1K and sounds quite good. It was also, with the exception of the speakers, all purchased brand new. It does not get to the heights of the main systems but is very satisfying given room (and wife ;) ) considerations. 

 

Just my ramblings and opinions. :)

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18 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

That doesn't make one or the other necessary,  it merely expresses an opinion on which sounds best.

Yeah but his conversation is happening on "advice for beginners." Some have stated a separate amp is a must regardless of AVR--given I don't think it's been said, my final recommendation on the subject is don't buy a separated amp until you've experimented with the AVR or Receiver you purchased. Btw, I totally agree that choosing a good pre-amp is essential (AVR or separate) 

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lol. No, it came in like someone's else's work

13 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

It looked slicker than just an opinion. I wanted to point that out since it came in like a published story with disclaimer. 

 

Let's just call it "a slick opinion". Since I didn't write it, I just gave credit like I'm supposed to.

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2 hours ago, oldtimer said:

You are assuming the avr/receiver has pre-outs.  Why waste money on experimentation if their is no option other than scrapping and starting over?  talk about spending other people's money...

No I'm not. If a beginner has gotten to the level of asking if they need a separate amplifier he would be advised to look for at least a mid-grade AVR/Receiver that has them.

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1 hour ago, Deang said:

I’m sure the newbie will be dissuaded. Btw, what are your audio related credentials? I guess some opinions carry more weight than others - ya think?

Sure, Dean. This isn't a pissing contest and if anyone wants to search my posts for my knowledge level they can do so. I have been an active member of this hobby for almost 20 years and share my thoughts and experiences,  just like yourself....There are quite a few things I've done longer and enjoyed conversing with you on those topic as well. If your feelings were hurt I apologize. 

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Can't we just all agree that it's fine for beginners to start out with a receiver? That's where most of us started. But with the provision that a receiver is only a starting block to get their foot in the door and there is nowhere to go but up. I hold the same opinion regarding AVRs for two channel music, but that's MY opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

Bottom line is let's just bring 'em in the fold first. We can edjumicate them

on the superiority of tubes later........

 

Shakey

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3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

Can't we just all agree that it's fine for beginners to start out with a receiver? That's where most of us started. But with the provision that a receiver is only a starting block to get their foot in the door and there is nowhere to go but up.

 

Yes, a receiver or integrated amp (if no interest in AM/FM) is a great starting place.  But I would add to this sage advice, don't bother upgrading UNLESS your are able to able to hear a difference - while unaware of which you are hearing! - when you compare it the "upgrade".  This is such plain, simple, and obvious advice.  As I said earlier, not everyone is interested in making audio an on-going, endless work in progress.  Most people just want the best system their money can buy then enjoy years of listening to it.

 

I have no interest in convincing the "amp selection is like wine tasting" crowd. You are entitled to enjoy this hobby any way you wish.  I wish you years of audio nirvana.  But beginners need to know that the claims that modern-day  amps, which are engineered to be linear and well-behaved into any typical speaker load (which is EVERY s/s amp/ or receiver these days)  sounds different is NOT supported by any plausible rationale or blinded trials.

 

 

 

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Ever wonder why NO amplifier manufacturer has ever mentioned in an ad how their amp, dac, speaker cable, power cord (sigh), etc.. was preferred by listeners in a  blinded trial??  I mean, how compelling would that be!?  Imagine an ad like "In 30 blinded listening trials, our amp was preferred 87% of the time."  ..They could describe all trial details in a footnote, etc..   But no, they'd rather include instructions that you "need to give X-component 20-100 hours of break-in before any critical listening."  

 

Again, this hobby's disinterest in ANY form of validity testing is discouraging and keeps it from being respected by practitioners of the scientific-method.  Heck, forgot DBT, I'd be partly satisfied if they'd at least keep a component under consideration behind a screen so no pre-conceived notions about the brand, or whether its "separates" or "tubes" or whether there are tone controls on the faceplate can creep in and influence what they hear.   

 

Thank god the FDA doesn't allow drug companies to make unsubstantiated claims the way gear companies do.

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Zen, I guess you can’t tell the difference between “hurt feelings” and irritatation. 

 

Shakey, I wouldn’t assume that a new person who comes to this fresh wouldn’t want better sounding equipment. This type of person will undoubtably have scratched a lot of stuff off their list. Mid-tier receivers being one of them.

 

Like @TubeHiFiNut said, you don’t have to go bankrupt to get great sound.

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3 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Yes, a receiver or integrated amp (if no interest in AM/FM) is a great starting place.  But I would add to this sage advice, don't bother upgrading UNLESS your are able to able to hear a difference - while unaware of which you are hearing! - when you compare it the "upgrade".  This is such plain, simple, and obvious advice. 

 

I have no interest in convincing the "amp selection is like wine tasting" crowd. You are entitled to enjoy this hobby any way you wish.  I wish you years of audio nirvana.  But beginners need to know that the claims that modern-day  amps, which are engineered to be linear and well-behaved into any typical speaker load (which is EVERY s/s amp/ or receiver these days)  sounds different is NOT supported by any plausible rationale or blinded trials.

 

 

 

I guess we can gather from your statement that you have heard EVERY modern SS amp available? I know I have not. But of the ones I have heard, none of them sounded identical. Some were very similar, I will give you that. Even receivers, which I have no use for these days, can sound different. My first indication of this was going from a Yamaha multi-channel receiver to a Denon receiver (which had less power). I'm not sure how anyone in the room couldn't hear the difference.

 

Another example. I was selling a Parasound HCA-2200 II back in the mid 90s. I had replaced it with a McCormack DNA-1 (again, a less powerful amplifier). A guy drove 3.5 hours to pick up the Parasound. Before he even handed over the $$ he was curious to hear the DNA-1, so I swapped them out. From the first minute of music a look came over his face. It was quite obvious how much better the McCormack was. He reluctantly paid me for the Parasound and left. But for a brief moment, I thought I had actually lost the sale.

 

So my "plausible rationale" is the enjoyment of music. Some amplifiers get it right, others miss the mark completely. And I don't need a double blind this or sine wave that to tell me which is which.

 

Shakey

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16 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

Another example. I was selling a Parasound HCA-2200 II back in the mid 90s. I had replaced it with a McCormack DNA-1 (again, a less powerful amplifier). A guy drove 3.5 hours to pick up the Parasound. Before he even handed over the $$ he was curious to hear the DNA-1, so I swapped them out. From the first minute of music a look came over his face. It was quite obvious how much better the McCormack was.

 

So he made conclusions about how an amp sounds listening to it on YOUR speakers in your listening room?  Or if you're saying he listened first to the Para, then McC...  Did you carefully equalize volume levels??  Simply leaving the volume knob on the pre-amp is not the same (and I'm sure you know this..).  Even if it's only slightly so, the louder amp will sound "more open, more bloom, better liquidity, faster, etc.....".  (Ugh)

 

You and others keep saying I'm wrong b/c you recall hearing a difference that was unmistakeable!  ..But these anecdotal accounts mean nothing if no effort whatsoever was made to control bias.

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@ODS123 I’m not going to discount all of that, I understand what you’re saying. Believe me, I’m not trying to make a case for $20K+ amplifiers. I have about $1000 into my tube integrated and I’m using an older Oppo that I would like to replace. Even behind a curtain, the improvement over most mass produced consumer hi-fi would be pretty easy to hear. If comparing solid state, some of the older vintage stuff obviously sounds smoother and more authoritative than what most start out with these days. 

 

I totally agree that the output levels need to be matched. However, if you have to add in external component(s) to manipulate the output so that two units sound the same, you’ve then just proved that the units sound different - not the same. 

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27 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

So he made conclusions about how an amp sounds listening to it on YOUR speakers in your listening room?  Or if you're saying he listened first to the Para, then McC...  Did you carefully equalize volume levels??  Simply leaving the volume knob on the pre-amp is not the same (and I'm sure you know this..).  Even if it's only slightly so, the louder amp will sound "more open, more bloom, better liquidity, faster, etc.....".  (Ugh)

 

You and others keep saying I'm wrong b/c you recall hearing a difference that was unmistakeable!  ..But these anecdotal accounts mean nothing if no effort whatsoever was made to control bias.

I won't convince you to be a subjectivist, nor you make me into an objectivist. This one goes the same way as politics. Minds are very unlikely to change. You would laugh if I told you the first time I tried an aftermarket power cord on a SS amp I was on the phone the next day spending my 300.00. Same amp, same volume level, same speakers, same room, same listener.

 

Like you said, we should all enjoy this hobby in whatever way we like. If doing a rain dance in your listening room before turning on your system improves the sound, who am I to poo poo your belief?

 

Shakey

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