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Advice for Beginners....


ODS123

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Let’s dissect the claim that all amps sound the same.

  • Is someone asserting that ALL amps sound the same, including tube amps and solid state?
  • Is someone asserting that all solid-state amps sound the same, or only all “modern” solid-state amps?
  • Is someone asserting that all modern solid-state amps sound the same, or only solid-state amps bought at a “big box” store?
  • I’m not an expert on amp design – so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can jump in – but my understanding is that not all modern solid-state amps are designed or built the same.  Is someone asserting that all modern solid-state amps sound the same, regardless of Class A, Class AB, Class D, output transformers (e.g., some McIntosh) or not, type of feedback, design of power supply, quality of components, etc.?

The average consumer will undoubtedly buy an AVR from a big-box store and be content.  That makes sense.

 

Someone who watches Hollywood movies, and/or listens to electronic music, and/or listens to poor-quality recordings, will likely be content with an AVR from a big-box store.

 

Someone who listens to music only in the background will likely be content with an AVR from a big-box store.

 

For the newbie, listen for yourself and decide for yourself.  If you want an AVR that’s totally cool.  A good friend of mine needed a new receiver and Blu-ray player.  Stereo (maybe a subwoofer later).  Movies and music.  Limited budget for this expenditure.  He had been satisfied with his old Onkyo stereo receiver.  I coached him to buy a new “open box” Onkyo TX-8270 for $300 (free shipping).  This is a state-of-the-art 2.1 network AVR with 4K HDMI switching.  I’m glad he’s satisfied with his purchase.  At the same time, when he and his wife come to my home, they comment on how much they like the sound of my tube amps when listening to classical music.

 

If a newbie listens to music that involves natural instruments (e.g., classical, and some big-band, folk, jazz, etc), and you intend to engage in serious listening, and you intend to buy high-end Klipsch speakers, then I suggest that you listen to high-quality recordings via Klipsch speakers driven by tube amps.  And if possible, listen to different tube amps, with different output tubes.   And if possible, when auditioning equipment, listen to your favorite music for a long period of time, in a relaxed environment.  If after an hour of listening you have no listener fatigue, and you’ve completely forgotten about the equipment test because you’re totally mesmerized by the music, and you have a huge smile on your face – you’ve probably found the right equipment for you.

 

If a newbie has heard tube amps, and is intrigued, the good news is that the newbie can experiment, and it won’t necessarily cost them a lot of money.  Unlike an AVR, vintage tube amps have established resale value.  In other words, you could buy a vintage tube amp, and if you decide to sell you will probably recoup your investment by selling on eBay. 

 

I am certain that my hi-fi systems are not the best in the world.   With that said, every time someone comes to my home they comment about the excellent sound quality of my hi-fi systems, and they ask if the sound quality is because of hi-res recordings, or tube amps, or the speakers.   My answer is “yes”.  

 

Regarding the proposed $10k amp test - I’ve conducted my own version countless times.  I have 5 hi-fi systems.  Four are equipped with multiple amps.  For example, here’s the equipment in my TV room.  

 

 

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My modern solid-state NAD C375BEE amp sounds good.   For serious listening to classical music and opera, I find the tube amps more musically engaging – more enjoyable – more like what I remember hearing in the symphony hall.   I’ve switched between these amps countless times, and I always prefer the tube amps for classical music.  Which amp I prefer depends on the recording.  (Is someone going to mail me a check for $10k? ☺️ )   Same situation and results in my office system and living room system – each has multiple amps (including one solid-state amp and multiple tube amps).  In my basement system I’ve gotten rid of the solid-state amps and have only tube amps.   I mostly use the solid-state amps for summertime, Hollywood movies, and background listening.

 

Could I live with one of my solid-state amps if I had to?  Yes.   But I’m a hobbyist, and I enjoy being able to listen to different amps – specifically tube amps.   And when I settle in on a cold winter day to listen to classical music, it’s going to be via one of my tube amps.

 

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8 minutes ago, Deang said:

I think it's absurd to claim no difference, and then spend 10x more money than you have to - because hey - "I really like those meters".

 

I was focused on components, not wire and power cords.

 

The NAD stuff has always sounded good. I don't doubt your claim one bit.

 

That's funny.  So you're accusing me of being a closet subjectivist.  Well, that's a first :)

 

 What's hard to believe about my reasons??  I love the retro look, tactile feel, heritage and feature set of Mac gear.  For decades I've looked forward to owning one and only now (well, 5 years ago) have I been able to afford it.   Also, I insist on having Bass/ Treble, Balance, and a Mono switch to help make poorly recorded (usually tipped up) more listenable.  ..I'm not aware of many brands that offer these incredibly sensible features.

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12 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

 

The thread is titled Advice for Beginners....

 

All the different opinions are interesting, and your personal experience and knowledge is much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

I appreciate different perspectives and enjoy conversing about our hobby.

 

Seems like this subject is "one of those" where the two camps are pretty entrenched in their thinking - me very much included. ;);)

 

Thankfully, the discussion has been civil and respectful.

 

Just my opinion.

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I'm glad the subject of Richard Clark came up. Back in the 80s, I had the fortune to be able to sit in both of his IASCA winning cars and what an experience it was. His Grand National used all Alpine electronics including amplifiers. It makes one wonder why such a staunch objectivist would choose Alpine over Sanyo or Pyramid? Both of those companies were making car head units, electronic crossovers and amplifiers at a much cheaper price. But he chose Alpine. I too was an Alpine customer, but because I heard the difference in SQ over the other contenders out there. Wonder why he did?

 

Shakey

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What I learned from that link about the amp challenge is that he can make two amps sound the same by adding an outboard EQ, or modifying the output of an amp with a cap, coil, resistor, and a group of screaming children in the background.

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7 minutes ago, Deang said:

What I learned from that link about the amp challenge is that he can make two amps sound the same by adding an outboard EQ, or modifying the output of an amp with a cap, coil, resistor, and screaming children in the background.

 

He states, "All signal processing circuitry (e.g. bass boost, filters) must be turned off, and if the amplifier still exhibits nonlinear frequency response, an equalizer [ or cap, and resistor] will be set by Richard Clark and inserted inline with one of the amps so that they both exhibit identical frequency response. The listener can choose which amplifier gets the equalizer."

 

He went on to say this was usually used when comparing Tube amps (which are usually non-linear) to S/S amps.  If both amps have linear responses (like most modern-day amps) then no equalization was used.

 

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nonlinear frequency response is an amplifier's response to the load - this contributes to the amplifier's sonic signature. Yes we know, if you fiddle enough, you can fool people. Who cares?

 

Solid state amps have varying source impedance (damping), and different loudspeakers will be effected to varying degrees - just like some tube amplifiers.

 

Want to match SPL to .05dB? Fine. Makes perfect sense to me. Anything else is cheating. Further adjustments only prove that the amplifiers sound different.

 

I'm bored with amps. Let's talk about preamps. Where is the preamp challenge? 

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On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:00 PM, Deang said:

No one could hear the difference between the $200 Pioneer receiver and the Levinson monoblocks, which I believe were tube amps. So, either everyone was deaf, the units sounded the same, or the test was flawed.

 

Or... the source material was not demanding of the electronics, such that no audible differences were observed.

 

Extreme example: Using AM radio with it's limited frequency response and inherent noise and distortion will sound equally bad with either the cheap receiver or the expensive monoblocks.

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On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:38 PM, Chris A said:

Actually, Toole and Olive (JBL/Harman) have shown pretty convincingly that this isn't really the case when talking about evaluating sound quality of a sound reproduction system.  Put a collection of loudspeakers in a room for people to listen to, without them knowing which speaker they are listening to at each trial, and then repeat that test in another room with different electronics, etc., and the same rank order of the loudspeakers will appear, almost without rank reversals.

 

I am not sure if it was in this listening test where I read that the test subjects who were audio professionals (musicians, orchestra conductors, audio engineers) had less variance in test results than untrained listeners. The trained listeners mostly agreed on what they preferred from best loudspeaker to worst whereas the untrained listeners' preferences were all over the place. After some "training" the second group improved with regard to consistency of results.

 

Many double blind ABX tests are not qualitative - the goal is to determine if any difference exists between two devices or options under test.

 

 

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I remember the same thing about listeners' performance from Toole's writings on qualifying the volunteer listeners for the JBL/Harman listening program.  Harman first screens them for hearing loss, then the ability to use their ears in listening trials.  The professionals usually do well, ostensibly because they have already spent a fair amount of effort training their hearing while learning to play their instrument/using their voice, and being able to do that well in groups/ensembles, or using their ears for music production tasks (recording, mixing, mastering, etc.).

 

Chris

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53 minutes ago, Chris A said:

The professionals usually do well, ostensibly because they have already spent a fair amount of effort training their hearing while learning to play their instrument/using their voice, and being able to do that well in groups/ensembles, or using their ears for music production tasks (recording, mixing, mastering, etc.).

 

Which begs the question of why so many professionals “seem” to have such low quality reproduction systems for personal use...?

 

miketn

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I think that these individuals typically have access to the real thing on a daily basis, so their requirements for personal sound reproduction are actually quite low, since they're using them for something other than "realistic reproduction", i.e., they're listening like most people use their computer speakers to play just so that they can hear the mere outlines of the music in order to hear their interpretation and the compositional structure/melodies of the music itself.  The objective is to facilitate the musicians themselves playing the music. 

 

I've found that most musicians, once they get "off the job", usually don't listen to much music once they've reached maturity as players.  They might listen to a car radio, etc., in order to break the monotony, but other than that--it's mostly muzak-like listening in elevators and doctors' offices.  Notable exceptions are conductors of large symphonies, which listen for interpretative differences for entire orchestral pieces, and soloists which listen to other individual soloist recordings in order to set their own interpretations of music.  These people typically have more disposable income to lay on better sound reproduction, and a better reason to use them.  Another reason may be that most musicians and recording/mixing/mastering folks don't have a lot of extra cash lying around for a better sound reproduction system--which is the majority reason why I didn't stay in music as a living.   The guys that do make a lot of money usually aren't playing the type of music that I prefer to listen to, at least nowadays (popular music). 

 

Those are my first-hand experiences with professional musicians and sound reproduction systems.

 

Chris

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I think this thread has turned from,  Advice for beginners to What do Audiophiles think....I'm not sure what everyone is measuring or comparing, but once a beginner auditions something, likes how it sounds, and then takes It home they will go on to appreciate source material and in no part of the process are they going to be experts in differentiate amps. That said, if they take it to the next and become obsessed with components and coerced to try new things and "upgrade." Nothing wrong if you are into that kind of thing but someone will ALWAYS try to get you to spend money. Once most people do, they aren't taking it back or changing it out unless it's obviously detrimental to their system--There is a lot of psychological stuff going on and people are persuaded by words here (or in the showroom with salesman) before they ever compare equipment, imo. 

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MikeTN,

 

I realize that most people also count "popular music musicians" in their list of professionals (like rock, C&W, blues, pop, etc.) but my experience is that most of those typically don't have a lot of formal music education...certainly nothing like someone that might have graduated from a music conservatory and work in a major orchestra or other type of professional music ensemble, etc. These people typically make a living teaching others playing musical instruments in order to make a living (talk to @tromprof here for a more in-depth discussion on this subject).  These are the "musicians" that I believe most people are referring to when they say that "musicians love Khorns over other types of loudspeakers", etc.

 

Most professional musicians that I know do listen to popular music, but it's typically not the same for them as perhaps the "serious audiophile" here willing to spend literally many thousands of dollars on their home reproduction system that you see haunting these pages.  Most professional musicians that I know just don't have that kind of cash and must do what they must to assemble better sounding systems (and a lot of those guys are also DIY audio guys).

 

I think a lot of people here think of those that produce electronically amplified popular music are also the same type of musicians, but I believe that there is a distinction.  There are exceptions, for sure...but most formerly "garage rock musicians that have graduated to professional gig" musicians don't mix very much socially among those that have spent most of their lives going the other more music education and training route.  I think you understand the distinction that I refer to. 

 

Chris

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26 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I think this thread has turned from,  Advice for beginners to What do Audiophiles think....I'm not sure what everyone is measuring or comparing, but once a beginner auditions something, likes how it sounds, and then takes It home they will go on to appreciate source material and in no part of the process are they going to be experts in differentiate amps. That said, if they take it to the next and become obsessed with components and coerced to try new things and "upgrade." Nothing wrong if you are into that kind of thing but someone will ALWAYS try to get you to spend money. Once most people do, they aren't taking it back or changing it out unless it's obviously detrimental to their system--There is a lot of psychological stuff going on and people are persuaded by words here (or in the showroom with salesman) before they ever compare equipment, imo. 

 

I agree that some people get caught up with brand names and badges. Sometimes a  guy who spends 5K on a new amplifier will go out of his way to justify his purchase. Maybe he talks himself into hearing improvements when he really doesn't hear any, or is not sure. That happens. But it doesn't negate the fact that many times the buyer really hears significant improvements. Both are valid scenarios.

 

And sometimes people hear something that is clearly better, but make allowances in their mind that what they have is just as good., to avoid spending X dollars on said improvement.

 

The mind is a tricky thing.....

 

Shakey

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