audiojerry Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 Deang, because I'm new to the forum, I wasn't aware of you or your upgrade service. A pm from a forum member informed me about you. I learned about Crites and ALKENG using Google searches. I didn't get any results for Deang, and I couldn't find a website for Deang. Several replies to this posting have recommended new caps as a way to start, so I saw the $99 AA exchange as an inexpensive way to go since it includes decent caps, a new air core inductor, zobel, and some compensating resistors. I am hoping that this upgrade will allow me to decide how deep I should go into upgrades. I've read that the K-77 can't be crossed over below 6k hz because of risk of damage. Can that issue be addressed in the crossover? PS: I'm hoping I didn't start a firestorm with questions about crossover designers.😧 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelhead Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 8 hours ago, garyrc said: I like the sound of the K-77 tweeters. They are adequately smooth, and even smoother with Audyssey. Klipschorns, since about 2002, use a 4,500 Hz crossover with K-77s. The crossover is 36 dB per octave, for the high pass into the tweeter, as opposed to the 6 dB per octave Klipsch used to use with the former 6,000 Hz crossover. This is good to know. I assume my LS ii crossover is very similar to this. The results are too good for me to think about. My only issue is it is so revealing. Some tracks sound better than I expected. Others are grating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelhead Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 8 hours ago, Deang said: All true, but by today’s standards, it’s a poor excuse for a tweeter. Today what is your favorite drop in replacement for a K-77 M, new production? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 The B&C de120 in @Dave A‘s horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 9 hours ago, audiojerry said: Deang, because I'm new to the forum, I wasn't aware of you or your upgrade service. A pm from a forum member informed me about you. I learned about Crites and ALKENG using Google searches. I didn't get any results for Deang, and I couldn't find a website for Deang. Several replies to this posting have recommended new caps as a way to start, so I saw the $99 AA exchange as an inexpensive way to go since it includes decent caps, a new air core inductor, zobel, and some compensating resistors. I am hoping that this upgrade will allow me to decide how deep I should go into upgrades. I've read that the K-77 can't be crossed over below 6k hz because of risk of damage. Can that issue be addressed in the crossover? @audiojerry, you didn't do anything wrong, I just like to whine. I stopped accepting work for a couple of years and took my site down. I left it down because I still work a full time job and couldn't handle all of the work that I was getting. I got real behind and it was ugly. I was also tired of spending all of my spare time in the workroom. I now do a few things a month, and that's fine with me. At any rate, if you're looking for low cost on a Heritage build, I am not the guy you want to be looking for. Al's Super AA is a good place to start. I built a set using those parts and thought it sounded meh. OTOH, I know of a couple of others that really like it. At $99 it's kind of a no brainer - if you like them, great. If not, just sell them. You can also buy a capacitor replacement kit from Bob Crites and rebuild your AA networks. In fact, you could do both and then compare. BTW, there is no Zobel in the Super AA. What you are probably seeing is the single coil that is used to form a simple bandpass for the midrange. The Klipsch AA does not use that part, instead relying on the mass roll-off of the compression driver. The Super AA also drops the midrange output an extra 3dB, and he brings the tweeter down with an L-pad to match/rebalance the output. This gives the perception that there is more bass. This also works great for louder listening sessions - but not so great for those of us who sit kind of close and/or aren't trying to split sheetrock. The crossover of the newer Klipsch networks was lowered to 4.5kHz to provide a more even power response. This is also the upper limit of that particular midrange driver, which would use the collapsing verticals of the horn to lift the falling response of the driver. Steeper slopes were employed in the tweeter section of the filter to protect the K-77-F, which can only handle about 2 watts. The lower crossover point cannot be used with the lower order filters that Klipsch used to use (A, AA, B, B2, etc.). However, the old way gets almost four octaves out of the midrange, and a lot of us prefer that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiojerry Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) @Deang Thanks for the additional info, and thanks again to all. As I'm learning more I'm getting more excited about all the potential for future upgrade paths. It looks like there are numerous ways to go with no single right way. This is fun! Has anyone gone with Dave Harris Eliptrac 400 wooden horn kit for the midrange? I'm considering a possible mod involving the Eliptrac 400 mounted side by side with the B&C DE120 or B&C DE10. Edited November 9, 2018 by audiojerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 do not butcher those beautiful cabinets 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiojerry Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 24 minutes ago, Budman said: do not butcher those beautiful cabinets LOL. They are not so beautiful - photos don't reveal numerous missing chips of veneer along nearly all edges. If I can find a way to disassemble the outer pieces without wrecking the inner horn assembly, I might replace them with mdf with the same veneer. I'd also like to add a finished edge and a grille on the mid/tweeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiojerry Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 24 minutes ago, Budman said: do not butcher those beautiful cabinets LOL. They are not so beautiful - photos don't reveal numerous missing chips of veneer along nearly all edges. If I can find a way to disassemble the outer pieces without wrecking the inner horn assembly, I might replace them with mdf with the same veneer. I'd also like to add a finished edge and a grille on the mid/tweeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron167 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Deang, i meant no offense to you (or anyone). I've never seen your site, let alone your research or supporting documentation. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 On 11/6/2018 at 2:19 PM, audiojerry said: Cabinets have a few flaws. I'm thinking of making these babies my woodworking and audio mod hobby projects, provided I decide they are worthy. They sure seem to be. Not knowing your budget...then consider building a top and putting the K510 inside of it. Or, if you have the will for it.... slap a larger K402 on top and let them be heard in spite of the speakers sitting in front of them! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 33 minutes ago, Coytee said: Not knowing your budget...then consider building a top and putting the K510 inside of it. Yea I hear you can buy 'em for 19 bucks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiojerry Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 40 minutes ago, Coytee said: Not knowing your budget...then consider building a top and putting the K510 inside of it. Or, if you have the will for it.... slap a larger K402 on top and let them be heard in spite of the speakers sitting in front of them! That K-402 is hu-u-u-u-ge! What are the sonic advantages of the 402 or the 510 over the 400? Admittedly, I have very little experience with horns, but I've heard a few different lines at audio stores and shows. My own personal takeaway is that curved apertures sound better than straight line apertures, and wood horns sound better. One of the best sounding horns came from a pair of Volti Audio at the Axpona show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 4 hours ago, audiojerry said: Has anyone gone with Dave Harris Eliptrac 400 wooden horn kit for the midrange? The Eliptrac and the driver used on my speakers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiojerry Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 5 hours ago, Full Range said: The Eliptrac and the driver used on my speakers That is beautiful. But that does not look like the diy kit I saw. It looks like a completely finished product. Did this come from down under? Are those ISO Acoustics pucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 33 minutes ago, audiojerry said: That is beautiful. But that does not look like the diy kit I saw. It looks like a completely finished product. Did this come from down under? Are those ISO Acoustics pucks? In pretty sure the original builder @sootshe purchased the Eliptrac 400 as a kit and was assembled down under and finished These are the isolation feet under the midrange horn And here is a photo with the custom crossover since we are discussing them on this thread 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiojerry Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 Awesome! Even the crossover looks like a work of art. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 That is beautiful. But that does not look like the diy kit I saw. It looks like a completely finished product. Did this come from down under? Are those ISO Acoustics pucks? When Fastlane audio was around, they were offered as a kit or assembled option. they are a great sounding horn. If you have the chance to pick up a pair, do so. If not search for a pair of the k510 or K402, both great options, if not better than the Elliptrac 400.Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 13 hours ago, audiojerry said: LOL. They are not so beautiful - photos don't reveal numerous missing chips of veneer along nearly all edges. If I can find a way to disassemble the outer pieces without wrecking the inner horn assembly, I might replace them with mdf with the same veneer. I'd also like to add a finished edge and a grille on the mid/tweeter. Are you seriously considering MDF? Please say no!! I just busted up an LSI that was to far gone to recover and yes it may be possible for you to beat off the side panels and replace them but you run the risk of to much ancillary damage to even consider it in my opinion. I did save the doghouse and if I rebuild it I will use 1" Baltic Birch which is far superior to MDF in strength and water damage resistance and looks good on it's own sealed with polyurethane. Those look way to nice to consider what you mention. If you have to putty in those minor chips, strip it down to wood and re-coat with satin spar polyurethane. Personally speaking if you start getting into that $3,000+ range you are quickly approaching if you buy into some of these items in this thread I would rather spend that money and get a used Jubilee and now you are really talking awesome sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 13 hours ago, audiojerry said: That K-402 is hu-u-u-u-ge! What are the sonic advantages of the 402 or the 510 over the 400? Admittedly, I have very little experience with horns, but I've heard a few different lines at audio stores and shows. My own personal takeaway is that curved apertures sound better than straight line apertures, and wood horns sound better. One of the best sounding horns came from a pair of Volti Audio at the Axpona show. K402 is indeed huge. It's bigger than the entire LaScala itself. It however, seems to be the 'secret sauce' that really knits several different designs together,. turning them into superb sounding speakers. I've never heard Greg's Volti speakers. I've spoken with him for numerous hours over the phone. His tuning fork is his ear. That could be wonderful. Klipsch's tuning fork is their anechoic chamber. If you want your speaker 'all Klipsch' then you can do that with Klipsch engineered parts. If you want to pull parts off the shelf that likely sound good, then you can do that too. If I recall, Volti uses 2" throat (??) and if that's correct, then I think that alone is one big step towards improving the sound. Not for the volume but the scale of sound and lower distortion. (both 402 and 510 are 2' throats) I'm not bashing the LaScala since I've owned a pair since buying them new in 1979.... so with that said, dumping the 400/77 drivers and swapping out for the 402 or 510 is a stellar conversion (my opinion). The 'stock' LaScala sounds smaller. Mind you, this has nothing to do with volume. It's the size/scale of the sound, not loudness I'm talking about. (though the volume can literally push you out of the room if you get stupid with the knob) Edited to add: Oh, and i think this is unequivical..... if you go 402/510/active route....you are converting to 2-way and losing a crossover point. This alone, will noticeably increase the intelligibility of the speaker. It took me a couple years and some dumbazz questions about what I was hearing before someone clarified that for me) 2 hours ago, Dave A said: Personally speaking if you start getting into that $3,000+ range you are quickly approaching if you buy into some of these items in this thread I would rather spend that money and get a used Jubilee and now you are really talking awesome sound. Perhaps a good idea but in reality, how often does a pair of used Jubilee's come up for sale and, how close are they? If someone has the wallet, then the 'easy button' is to just order a pair and move on with life, putting the drama behind you! Then again, I guess there are people who enjoy the chase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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