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New owner of vintage La Scala seeking advice


audiojerry

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13 hours ago, The Dude said:

When Fastlane audio was around, they were offered as a kit or assembled option. they are a great sounding horn. If you have the chance to pick up a pair,

Dave of Fastlane is still around - I emailed him (fastlaneaudio@aol.com), and he replied the next day. $339 for the kit delivered from CA to WI, so I requested a pair, but haven't heard back yet.  

 

8 hours ago, Dave A said:

Are you seriously considering MDF? Please say no!!  I just busted up an LSI that was to far gone to recover and yes it may be possible for you to beat off the side panels and replace them but you run the risk of to much ancillary damage to even consider it in my opinion. Damage is my big concern as well. Rebuilding the cabs would be the last project in my upgrade path. I'd like to find actual plans, or go the route of a different folded horn design using separate cabinets for mid and treble horns. I don't know, but I'm excited about the prospects.  I was considering mdf because it has better sound deadening properties, but have since ruled it out.

   Personally speaking if you start getting into that $3,000+ range you are quickly approaching if you buy into some of these items in this thread I would rather spend that money and get a used Jubilee and now you are really talking awesome sound. I would consider goint to $3,000 if I am pleased with the results I get as I go along, but I would have to  be willing to give up my Harbeths, which do sound different but beautiful in there own right. The sell for $3-3.5k on the used market. When I'm done with this La Scala upgrade journey, maybe I would consider Jubilee if I could ever find one. I once sought for a long time and finally acquired a pair of Shahinian Obelisks, and it took me equally as long to sell them after I enjoyed them for a couple of years.

 

6 hours ago, Coytee said:

 If I recall, Volti uses 2" throat (??) and if that's correct, then I think that alone is one big step towards improving the sound.  Not for the volume but the scale of sound and lower distortion.  (both 402 and 510 are 2' throats)

 

I'm not bashing the LaScala since I've owned a pair since buying them new in 1979....  so with that said, dumping the 400/77 drivers and swapping out for the 402 or 510 is a stellar conversion (my opinion).  The 'stock' LaScala sounds smaller.  Mind you, this has nothing to do with volume.  It's the size/scale of the sound, not loudness I'm talking about. 

....  if you go 402/510/active route....you are converting to 2-way and losing a crossover point.  This alone, will noticeably increase the intelligibility of the speaker.  It took me a couple years and some dumbazz questions about what I was hearing before someone clarified that for me)  That's a very interesting point. 2 way vs 3 way. That would require a far more drastic change from how I plan to proceed. Philosophically, are we talking the Klipsch approach vs Altec?

 

 

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Congratulations on your new LaScalas

The link below is a collection of my modest improvements

and lots of other modifications from other owners

I put them into a collection as a I read them.

My strong recommendation is one modification at a time, then pause for a while.

 

If you are having cabinet modifications, new woofer, and 2 way crossover with new horn,

I strongly recommend you get a quote from a local kitchen cabinet shop

for a pair of new bass cabinets with the braces, 1 in Baltic birch,

And depending on the horn and driver, they can make you a two piece cabinet like the LaScala 2s

Home sales are down from what I read, so a shop might be willing to be reasonable with you.

If you like your new 2 ways better than the LaScalas, put them in another room or sell to pay for the new ones.

 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/159419-lascala-update-upgrade/

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3 hours ago, audiojerry said:

Philosophically, are we talking the Klipsch approach vs Altec?

 

 

If specifically asked to me.... well....I have no clue since I don't really pay attention to anyone's approach.  (I just loved what I heard in 1978)

 

For me, it was when I had my Khorns (3-way).  I replaced them with the 2-way Jubilee.  I had a spot where I noticed my Khorns sounded distinctly better...  they had "one voice" (all drivers had melded together into a single wave front or something like that).  This spot was literally 30 feet away, I measured.

 

When I replaced them with the Jubilee's, I had same speaker location, same electronics (but for addition of actively biamping)...  soon went to this 30' spot only to find the Jubilee's did NOT sound "distinctly" better....  I was flummoxed.....

 

Cutting to the end of story...  with the Jubilee's, I thought their "signal alignment" was making them more coherent.  I was told that was wrong and I could prove it to myself by adjusting the delay to various amounts and other than an echo, what I was hearing wouldn't change.  This turned out to be true.  No, it was explained to me that what I was hearing was the loss of the HF crossover point since the 402 carried everything from mids on up.

 

I finally 'got it' (yes, my wife says I can be slow, let's not even ask what some of the guys here that know me think!)

 

So I finally learned that losing a crossover point alone can be a substantial improvement in coherency.  Instead of having to be 30 feet away from the 2-way Jubilee's, you can actually be around 10' away from them to get that "single voice".  

 

If I've stumbled onto a Klipsch or Altec philosophy, it's beyond me.  I just know that it was a distinct improvement and I liked it.  It could be Atilla the Hun's philosophy and I'd have to applaud...

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31 minutes ago, Deang said:

We went from a $99 network upgrade to +$2000 horn and compression upgrade package in 12 or so posts. Wow. 

Yes, this is crazy. When it is someone else's money there is always a great deal of advice ...

 

For the OP, either you either like the sound or you don't. The simplest strategy is to refresh the capacitors (don't bother "re-desingning" the crossover) and then augment the speaker with a modestly priced subwoofer. That should cover all bases.

 

Get used to the sound and then spend some time with speaker / chair placement (it is a slow and tedious process, but will give actual improvements). 

 

If you want to go to the next step, it is not done by replacing all the drivers, woofers, and horns on a La Scala. The next step is to purchaseJubilees. Now that is a step up!

Good luck, 

-Tom

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18 hours ago, Coytee said:

Perhaps a good idea but in reality, how often does a pair of used Jubilee's come up for sale and, how close are they?  If someone has the wallet, then the 'easy button' is to just order a pair and move on with life, putting the drama behind you!

 

Then again, I guess there are people who enjoy the chase.  

 

Well today I sold a set of KP480/250 II's that came from Atlanta and a set of KP301 II's from Bowling Green and the guy who bought them came from Charlotte,NC. There is a pair of Jubilees for sale right now in Indy from Coulter. I think more trades hands than most know because they are not digging or putting their names out there as being interested. Never said they would be easy to get but worthwhile to get and a bargain. Heck even if you had to buy new they are what, 1/2 the price of KHorns and much better.

  Yes the chase is certainly part of it and I can count on one hand the easy close by purchases I have made in the last five years.

 

   Folks I might be mistaken regarding the Coulter Jubilees. They came up in conversation and it might have been they were the ones he was going to keep. I talk to too many people to keep this stuff straight sometimes if it is not of real current interest to me. Just for the heck of it I did search today and nothing out there right now.

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5 hours ago, audiojerry said:

I'd like to find actual plans, or go the route of a different folded horn design using separate cabinets for mid and treble horns. I don't know, but I'm excited about the prospects.  I was considering mdf because it has better sound deadening properties, but have since ruled it out.

I have plans for the La Scala if you need them.

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@Dave A Thanks much for the offer. Can you provide the plans as an attachment, PM, or let me know.

 

My upgrade/mod journey will be a slow process, but I had to replace the caps, and $99 for a complete crossover seemed like a modest investment.

Same would be true for the Triptrac wood horn since it doesn't require any changes to the xover or use of the K-55 driver. 

 

I'm sensing that I might be getting teased a bit, and like Rodney Dangerfield, all I have to say is: "I resemble that remark". 

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5 hours ago, Deang said:

I stepped back somewhat after realizing my music and recordings would be eviscerated by a loudspeaker with the resolving power of the Jubilee. 

Yes indeed one way to find out how good your treasured music library is is to put it to the test.

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4 hours ago, audiojerry said:

My upgrade/mod journey will be a slow process, but I had to replace the caps, and $99 for a complete crossover seemed like a modest investment.

 

 

Let me just say that just some of the larger capacitors used on my crossovers cost more than $99 AU each 

So $99 US for a whole crossover pair is great 

 

 

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Yes, it's easy to spend a ton of money on upgrades, which may not be what you have in mind.  In my case, the madness began when I bought a 32-year-old pair of La Scalas.

 

They sounded "shouty", so that was the first thing I addressed.  Since the insides of the K400 horns were a bit lumpy and the paint was blotchy, I decided to remove them and staple sheets of grille cloth to the backs of the front panels, then re-install the horns.  It was easy to find suitable cloth at the neighbourhood car audio shop.  This improved the looks and took a bit of the edge off the sound.  Experimenting followed, and in the end, I settled with 3 layers of tightly-stretched cloth in front of the K400s.  The shoutiness was gone, and the speakers were much more pleasant to listen to, but still clear-sounding.  I made sure that there was no cloth in front of the tweeters, because the effect would be stronger in their frequency range, making them sound muffled.

 

The next step was the caps and tweeters.  The original K-77 tweeters differed in output by 2-3 dB, which messed up the stereo imaging.  The age of the speakers suggested that the capacitors were past their prime, so I ordered 2 sets of Sonicaps and a pair of CT125 tweeters from BEC.

 

To be clear as to which was doing what, I installed the caps first, and listened for changes/improvements for 3 days, getting familiar with the improved clarity.  Next, the new tweeters went in, and they made another worthwhile improvement in the sound.  Their output was 1-2 dB lower than the K-77s, which gave the impression that the speakers had a bit more bass.  No complaint on that front.  As well, their outputs matched to within about 0.5 dB, which improved the stereo imaging noticeably.  They're also able to go much higher in frequency than the K -77s, so cymbals and other high-frequency instruments sound more realistic.

 

The CT125 tweeters are a bit bigger in diameter than the K-77s, so I had to chisel 1/4" deep reliefs in the speaker top panels for clearance, but that was easy to do, and left 1/2" of material remaining.

 

Two years later, I'd been reading about Jubilees and JubScalas, which are bi-amped 2-way La Scalas with Jubilee tweeters.  To make a long story a little shorter, I put together a pair of JubScalas, which cost quite a bit more than I expected, around $4000 Cdn, and that was with mostly used components.  This is partly because Jubilees and JubScalas are 2-way designs that come without crossovers, so you need to buy an active electronic crossover, plus a second power amp to match the one you have, or a new pair altogether.  By then, there's no point in cheaping out on the amplification, so you need to get quality gear to get the best out of the speakers.

 

This is why one member suggested just getting Jubilees and calling it a great-sounding day.  They don't cost that much more than JubScalas, and use the same electronic setup.  They are the full package, the real thing.

 

So those are some of your options.  There's no need to jump in at the deep end, now or ever.  The new caps and tweeters are strongly recommended, don't cost too much, and may be all you ever want.

 

Happy listening!

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@Islander"shouty" 

 

That was one of my main issues after setting them up and listening to them for the first time, but I was so amazed by their sound that I decided to move forward with upgrades  after getting advice and suggestions from this forum, 

 

So far I have installed rebuilt AA xovers from ALKENG, braces to the woofer horns in the front, and a vertical brace in the midrange/xover compartment. The braces have noticeably helped with the vibrations from the cabinets, which I believe helped clear up colorations, and the ALK xover made a big improvement to the sound quality. It really reduced the shouty character and really improved overall quality and coherence. I'd have say my $99 investment so far has netted great results. 

 

I'll have more to say - I've only finished the changes 2 days ago.

 

Vancouver Island. eh? - I'm jealous, beautiful but a place I could never afford      

 

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 Shouty. My LSii suffer a little. Have not tried anything to resolve. Got a few things to try, and some input from more knowledgeable people. 

  This character is very recording driven. Some are fine. Others next to unlistenable. Need to dummy down the top end. 

New tweets and horns may help, the squawker is already crossed at around 4500 Hz. Have a lot of thick dampening material with adhesive. Will try dampening the cabinet when opening up the top hats for the first time. 

 They sure are magic with the right recording.

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11 hours ago, Panelhead said:

This character is very recording driven. Some are fine. Others next to unlistenable.

 

Absolutely.  This is true with Klipschorns, too. 

 

Most recordings are fine (mostly classical, jazz and Blu-ray movies, in my case).  So far, I've noticed that SACDs seem to be a little better, but that may be a coincidence, my bias, or the effect of the mixers knowing the recording would be purchased by audiophiles.

 

I think the tweeter gets the blame too often, when the midrange is actually letting through too much of the 450 to 4,500K range in bad recordings, i.e. those in which the midrange has been malevolently boosted -- and the deep bass cut -- for purposes that are mistakenly thought to boost sales (see ahead), or when speakers with inadequate midrange are used as studio monitors.   See Chris A's threads on de-mastering, starting with The Missing Octave (bass), and his other material on some horrible modern recording techniques used to fight the loudness wars.  

 

At one store I used to frequent, the tech guy altered the crossover to pad down the K55 (midrange) by 3 dB, while allowing the K77 (tweeter) to operate at the normal level in both a pair of Khorns and a pair of La Scalas.  They sounded good on some bad recordings I took in.  A few years later, I reminded him of that, and he said when PWK visited later he was infuriated.  

 

If you look at a frequency response graph of a La Scala or Khorn, you may see that the peaks above 400 Hz are all considerably less than 1/3 octave wide, and not of outrageous magnitude.  Supposedly it is difficult to hear a moderate peak less than 1/3 octave in width.  I have notes on the curves I've seen; I'll try to space and line up the notes in a meaningful way.  My Tab doesn't work on the forum.   I wish I had some La Scala II graphs, but the Khorns have the same midrange driver and horn. so it is a stand-in.  Khorns may be voiced a bit differently, and the La Scala (I & II) midranges are nearer to the floor, but I wouldn't expect much difference in  the behavior of the K55.  The 0 line is the visual center of a given curve.  No dips are shown.

 

Midrange driver Peaks (center points; all less than 1/3 octave in width, all with a K55 series mid driver)

 

Khorn (anechoic; from Klipsch)   475 Hz, +2.5 dB      1.25KHz, +5 dB     1.75KHz, +3 dB        2.65KHz,+3 dB       

450 Hz to 4.5K Hz,                                                       (about 1/7 octave)

(current X over points).

 

Khorn (from a Klipsch

advertisment, I think.                                           800 Hz, +4 dB   950-1.5KHz,+2dB                    2KHz, +2 dB                  5-6KHz, +4 dB 

450 Hz to 4.5K Hz, 

 

Khorn (in my room, set for flat)               550 Hz, +4.5 dB                          Response above 1.5K depressed

REW curve, 450 Hz to 4.5K Hz,                                                                      an average of 5 dB, with the curve +/- 2.5 dB.

Main Listening Position

Schroeder 144 Hz

 

Khorn (in my room, set for flat)              550 peak Gone!                      Response even with 1K  level.      3KHz,+1dB          

with Audyssey FLAT room                                                                                                                                                               compensation                                                                                                                                                                                     REW curve,                                                                                                                                                                                                   

450 Hz to 4.5K Hz,                                                                                                                                                                              

 

Note: With Audyssey Flat, a roll off starts at 12.5 K and reaches -2.5 dB at 15K Hz, slightly off axis.                       

 

For a La Scala I curve by PWK see my second post on page 1 of this thread.

 

Audyssey fixes things pretty well for me.  When things get too shouty with a bad recording, I switch from Audyssey Flat to Audyssey Reference, which, in addition to a mild roll-off at the top, provides "midrange compensation" which is a dip at about 2 to 3K, similar to the BBC dip.  That fixes it, most of the time.

 

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