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how to listen?


babadono
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3 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Since I was present during the very beginnings of the "AB/X Box" and experienced it for myself, I think I have a positive viewpoint to contribute here. This, as opposed to all the negative viewpoints for those who have had ZERO AB/X experience and are missing the basic premise. Are we clear? Here we go:

Thanks for the detailed description ClaudeJ1.  I think I understand the premise.  And, I am not trying to dismiss the technical or statistical validity of such testing.  However, for me the enjoyment of this hobby comes primarily from the emotional impact of listening to the music.  I suspect if I were to be subjected to that sort of testing, I may not be able to meet your 12 out of 16 goal.  I may even be inconsistent in which one I preferred from one test session to the next.  Since for me listening to music is an emotional thing, my preferences are likely influenced by things such as my current mood, how bad/good my day has been thus far, etc.

 

Such critical/technical analysis is necessary to develop quality products.  It's just not necessary for me  to determine what makes me smile while listening to my music.

 

 

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Wow, there is a lot of misunderstanding on display in this thread.

 

I see two branches of science being thrown under the bus by the subjectivist contingent.  They seem to deny the realities of the more reductive science of electrical engineering, and apparently have no understanding at all of the science of human perception.  Y'alls really should study the subject further, as there is a hundred years or so of solid peer reviewed research dating back to the Bell Labs days on the subject.  

 

ABX and double blind testing are valid methods employed in the science of human perception and/or to assess claims of audible differences in gear.  They are NOT "how we listen" at all.  

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37 minutes ago, Opus said:

Such critical/technical analysis is necessary to develop quality products.  It's just not necessary for me  to determine what makes me smile while listening to my music.

I agree about the "necessity." I'm not a professional audio engineer, just and amateur one. I have the skills to build my own AB/X box and Geddes and Clark live about 1/2 hour away from me. I never use speaker and room curves for anything except comparative objective data that I try and correlate to the listening experience. I'm as much of an emotional tester as anyone here.

 

I just wanted to point out the inherent Function AND Limitations of the AB/X box. It's just another tool that most people will never bother with, including me, since I don't earn a living doing this. I just like music on great speakers including other brands and types. While I may be accused of having tunnel vision, but I happen to roam a very big tunnel! LOL. The quest and fun never end.

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3 minutes ago, Ski Bum said:

I see two branches of science being thrown under the bus by the subjectivist contingent.  They seem to deny the realities of the more reductive science of electrical engineering, and apparently have no understanding at all of the science of human perception.  Y'alls really should study the subject further, as there is a hundred years or so of solid peer reviewed research dating back to the Bell Labs days on the subject.  

That's somewhat condescending.  I may not be an expert in "the science of human perception."  But, I am the expert in my own perception of what I like and don't like; as is every other individual on this planet.

 

I am not throwing science under the bus.  There are many aspects of the hi-fi hobby to be enjoyed.  If one's enjoyment comes from building/creating/analyzing, then, sure, applying scientific methodologies is relevant and valid.  But if one's enjoyment comes from the emotional impact of listening to music, IMHO, scientific analysis is not the deciding factor.  Scientific methodologies cannot determine what will bring me enjoyment and make me smile.

 

Some of us enjoy designing/building/improving various audio reproduction components.  Some of us enjoy listening to the music reproduced by those components. Which of those is your primary motivation sort of determines your thoughts on this.  And, it is possible for one's primary interest to move between those two over time.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Opus said:

That's somewhat condescending.  I may not be an expert in "the science of human perception."  But, I am the expert in my own perception of what I like and don't like

Of course you're the arbiter of what you like, but like it or not, your perceptions are just as mutable as anybody else's.  Do you want them based on illusory improvements, or genuinely audible improvements?  ABX is a tool to separate the wheat from the chaff, and help inform you how to best spend your hard earned ducats, either on worthy upgrades vs. expensive placebos of transient efficacy.  The illusory gains only work until they don't, after all. 

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21 minutes ago, Ski Bum said:

Of course you're the arbiter of what you like, but like it or not, your perceptions are just as mutable as anybody else's.  Do you want them based on illusory improvements, or genuinely audible improvements?  ABX is a tool to separate the wheat from the chaff, and help inform you how to best spend your hard earned ducats, either on worthy upgrades vs. expensive placebos of transient efficacy.  The illusory gains only work until they don't, after all. 

 

Are you and jimbo twins separated at birth?

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2 minutes ago, Ski Bum said:

Nope.  

Have you contributed anything to this thread that hasn't been some misguided logical fallacy or petty insult?  Try harder.

 

Just because I don't think DBT is the be all/end all of the audio hobby doesn't mean I don't have anything to contribute. You take this s&*t way too seriously. It 's not life or death. It's something we do for pleasure. Should you invite spectators in to make sure you and your wife are having sex correctly? You surely wouldn't want to depend on how you feel. A DBT might reveal more about how to improve your amorous activities. Maybe that would be a logical phallacy for you.

 

 

The fact that I haven't contributed anything that YOU find important means I'm doing something right.

 

As you were.........

 

 

 

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My, my, my..........    With a career steeped in research I do tend to look at subjects with an objective and critical eye. I find enjoyment in finding pathways to proofs. I do not believe anyone is telling anyone what’s best or right or wrong. We’re just acknowledging that the ability exists for quantifying these systems and yes behavioral responses. Industrial psyche stuff. Others may be skeptical but there’s a science to this and the main applications are in advertising. Look how successful BOSE is when it comes to steering the stereo market. Feel free to skip the analytics if you choose. Lots of diehard BOSE fans will testify to the wonders of sound reproduction with zero basis in facts/reality. We choose to split hairs to the nth degree...... and it is fun to boot.

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3 hours ago, Ski Bum said:

Of course you're the arbiter of what you like, but like it or not, your perceptions are just as mutable as anybody else's.  Do you want them based on illusory improvements, or genuinely audible improvements?  ABX is a tool to separate the wheat from the chaff, and help inform you how to best spend your hard earned ducats, either on worthy upgrades vs. expensive placebos of transient efficacy.  The illusory gains only work until they don't, after all. 

Yep, my perceptions are mutable.  I said as much when I said that in an A/B/X test I might like A one session and then B the next session.  In addition to enjoying the music, part of the fun of this hobby is hearing that music on different systems, and deciding which I like better;  But, I don't think that can done in a brief A/B/X session.  I want/like to hear something over an extended period of time, under different circumstances, and with different music.

 

Fortunately I have yet to fall for any of the multitudes of expensive "snake oil" gadgets, gizmos, and fixes in this hobby.  In large part due to my healthy skepticism of "scientific data" put forth by those that sell that stuff.  ;)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

Are you and jimbo twins separated at birth?

 

2 hours ago, Ski Bum said:

Nope.  

Have you contributed anything to this thread that hasn't been some misguided logical fallacy or petty insult?  Try harder.

 

Same old bullshit from someone that never contributes much of anything worthwhile, except to stroke his own ego and try to tear down others.  Lah dee dah.

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53 minutes ago, Bosco-d-gama said:

Others may be skeptical but there’s a science to this and the main applications are in advertising

I'm not necessarily skeptical of the science.  It's more that I'm skeptical of how the data that was obtained through that science has been manipulated and presented.  There's always some bias there.  As you said, "...the main applications are in advertising." 

 

For me how something sounds "in reality" is more important than how it "sounds" according to the data.  :)

 

57 minutes ago, Bosco-d-gama said:

We choose to split hairs to the nth degree...... and it is fun to boot.

Yep. 

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On 11/8/2018 at 3:39 PM, babadono said:

...met a Gent named David Clark. David and his associates had a small company called ABX (now defunct I believe) that made audio test switching equipment.  Their equipment as you might suspect from the name was used to switch back and forth from two sources A and B and then randomly select X which was either A or B. Not withstanding the argument pro or con of A/B/X testing the part that I liked about their equipment is the switching was  immediate and noiseless. So while still subjective and using  human hearing  as the measuring device it was using your immediate auditory memory. Not your 10 minute or hour or day (however long it took you to switch components) longer term memory. The idea of being able to switch immediately has merit to me. Not to prove or disprove anything but to help one decide which one sounds "better" to them.

A link to a free ABX plugin for foobar2000: https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx

 

I wonder how many on the forum (particularly those pooh-poohing ABX testing here and elsewhere) would say that Roy himself conducted extensive A-B trials using Jubilees in different configurations.  I learned a great deal from those tests.  Like how subtle it was to hear any difference between a "high brow" preamp and a lowly commoner preamp, the sound of different horns and different compression drivers, and the sound of different reflex bass bins vs. the Jubilee bass bin, etc., etc. I'd never give up those experiences.  They were priceless, IMO.

 

I again give thanks to Roy for his time to do those tests for us guys.  I wish that he'd do it again sometime for the new bunch of Jub owners and Jub enthusiasts.

 

Chris

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6 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I wonder how many on the forum (particularly those pooh-poohing ABX testing here and elsewhere) would say that Roy himself conducted extensive A-B trials using Jubilees in different configurations

I'm not pooh-poohing A/B/X testing.  I have said, in this thread, that it is necessary for designing and building quality products.  I've seen Roy's lab, and I certainly appreciate his efforts (and have immense respect for his knowledge and experience).  But I am not designing, building, or selling audio products.  I'm a consumer of audio products.  I think that A/B/X testing, or other scientific methods, are less important than "real world" listening when it comes to me deciding what I like.  I've said it many times... if it makes me smile when I listen to it, it's good!

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2 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

And no coaster on the top of that beautiful unit?  You heathen!

It was just for the picture.  I don't have much room for staging photographs here.  Don't worry, that NEVER happens on the SX-1250 at home.   :P

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