Best Cornwall....?

[MEH Synergy]

Medium-density fibreboard (MDF) is an engineered wood product made by breaking down hardwood or softwood residuals into wood fibres, often in a defibrator, combining it with wax and a resin binder, and forming panels by applying high temperature and pressure.^[1] MDF is generally denser than plywood. It is made up of separated fibres, but can be used as a building material similar in application to plywood. It is stronger and much denser than particle board.

 

WIKI

[MEH Synergy]

But because it is stronger and more dense than plywood, I doubt it will hold screws well. 

 

"MDF may be glued, doweled or laminated. Typical fasteners are T-nuts and pan-head machine screws" 

[Panelhead]

  I used to build speaker cabinets for personal use. Never used MDF. Started with lumber core ash, later went to the high ply count birch. Russian or Finnish. 

  It just feels and sounds right. 

  Always glued and screwed the cabinets. Used a 1” round over bit on a router table to facilitate wrapping the veneer to cover the front and both sides with one piece. 

  And I am guilty of buying a pair of new Klipsch and deciding to modify them. The LS ii 70th Anniversary speakers are too hot for my ears.  Can care less about resale. Doubt I will ever sell.

  

[ricktate]

If you want birch ply you have to buy Klipsch before 1980 which would be Cornwall 1......Heresy 1......LaScala 1.  I would rather buy older Cornwall and fix it up myself and have money left over to spend on good electronics.

[finallygotmyheresies]

14 minutes ago, ricktate said:

If you want birch ply you have to buy Klipsch before 1980 which would be Cornwall 1......Heresy 1......LaScala 1.  I would rather buy older Cornwall and fix it up myself and have money left over to spend on good electronics.

Early Cornwall II and Heresy II were still made from plywood. Not sure if it 100% true but I believe it is those of both models that had round terminal cups which went until 1986 iirc. 

[Dave A]

5 hours ago, ODS123 said:

And what about all the brands I have owned (and pretty much EVERY brand in existence these days) that use MDF w/out speakers falling apart or screws coming loose. ..So then,  how exactly is it inferior?

OK did you read why I say this? You quoted it and I hardly think why I dislike MDF was left out. It does not matter to me one iota that many high dollar speaker builders get cheap on their customers I know what I see and deal with when I have to fix the end result in the used speaker market..

[ODS123]

12 hours ago, Dave A said:

OK did you read why I say this? You quoted it and I hardly think why I dislike MDF was left out. It does not matter to me one iota that many high dollar speaker builders get cheap on their customers I know what I see and deal with when I have to fix the end result in the used speaker market..

 

I did see the comment about difficulty in repairing.  But why should this be such a huge consideration for either the manufacturer or consumer?  I mean, who the heck is exposing their multi-thousand $$ speakers to water??    I listed all of my speakers over the last 30 years and not ONE of them ever needed to have the cabinet fixed. In fact, I don't know anyone who has had to have a cabinet repaired.  So why make ease of cabinet repair a priority?

 

And you suggest their use of MDF is b/c "they're getting cheap on their customers."   Well, I tend to believe the reasons offered by Richard Vandersteen:  MDF is more consistent, easier to route/shape, less resonant, more stable, etc...

[ricktate]

https://web.archive.org/web/20111030080533/http://www.klipsch.com:80/cornwall-ii-floorstanding-speaker  

I guess it was 1986 when Cornwall changed over to MDF. When we went on tour through Hope I think the MDF they used was not your typical MDF. Maybe someone who knows more could chime in on that. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120324224038/http://www.klipsch.com:80/heresy-ii-floorstanding-speaker

1985 for Heresy.

[ODS123]

14 hours ago, ricktate said:

If you want birch ply you have to buy Klipsch before 1980 which would be Cornwall 1......Heresy 1......LaScala 1.  I would rather buy older Cornwall and fix it up myself and have money left over to spend on good electronics.

 

IMHO, the great thing about Klipsch speakers is that they are easy to drive and therefore don't need anything beyond an affordable integrated amp or A/V receiver.  So, IMHO, buying inexpensive electronics allows you to spend more on what accounts for 99% of the sound - the speakers.  A well treated used pair of CW1's and a 40+ watt A/V receiver would make for an awesome sounding and awesomely affordable system.  I can't think of any hobby where the law of diminishing returns is more apparent than audio.

[Dave A]

9 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

I did see the comment about difficulty in repairing.  But why should this be such a huge consideration for either the manufacturer or consumer?  I mean, who the heck is exposing their multi-thousand $$ speakers to water??    I listed all of my speakers over the last 30 years and not ONE of them ever needed to have the cabinet fixed. In fact, I don't know anyone who has had to have a cabinet repaired.  So why make ease of cabinet repair a priority?

 

And you suggest their use of MDF is b/c "they're getting cheap on their customers."   Well, I tend to believe the reasons offered by Richard Vandersteen:  MDF is more consistent, easier to route/shape, less resonant, more stable, etc...

OK you win with logic that overwhelms my personal experience and so I concede the validity of inferior material to be superior now and tip my hat to you. I am humbly chastened with the list of people you have used as reference material and your limited personal experience to be far above mine and more valid.

[jimjimbo]

Ain't nothin' but a party.

[Dave A]

10 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Ain't nothin' but a party.

Neck and neck with the capacitor ones ;D

[ODS123]

1 hour ago, Dave A said:

OK you win with logic that overwhelms my personal experience and so I concede the validity of inferior material to be superior now and tip my hat to you. I am humbly chastened with the list of people you have used as reference material and your limited personal experience to be far above mine and more valid.

 

Dave I'm not trying to harsh you.  But your suggestion that people who buy speakers made from MDF have basically been suckered deserves a pointed reply.  To my knowledge, pretty much EVERY wood speaker these days (Harbeth being the only exception I know of) is made from MDF.  ..Are they all junk??

[jjptkd]

 

[dtr20]

I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire, but I read awhile ago that mdf was great for speakers because it helps with cabinet resonance.

[Khornukopia]

Klipsch Pro speakers are made with plywood, for people who are more likely to drop or allow rain on their speakers. 

[ODS123]

The above Wilson Audio video seems to suggest they use a fancy form of MDF.

 

 

[Oicu812]

My thought on this is:  Would you want to live in a house made of MDF instead of solid wood products?  I doubt it.  Why cheap out?  Oh yeah, the bean counters call the shots, and say that birch plywood is too expensive to use on a set of speakers that retail in the high 4 figures, and sometimes well over $10,000 a pair.

 

It's probably true that most 'normal' consumers buy their set of speakers, locate them in the listening room, and there they sit for years.  In my career, however, I've had to move well over a dozen times.  So I will be buying the Pro models from now on, or the Heritage One models, all on the used market.  They are built for life on the road.  And not made of MDF because of that fact. 

 

Which should tell you something.  Klipsch would not be able to sell much in the Professional lines if they made them with MDF.  So which is the superior construction material?  I guess it depends upon the application.

 

 

[Schu]

Since you asked, mdf is the superior material... for home audio.

:/thread

[ODS123]

48 minutes ago, Oicu812 said:

My thought on this is:  Would you want to live in a house made of MDF instead of solid wood products?  I doubt it.  Why cheap out?  Oh yeah, the bean counters call the shots, and say that birch plywood is too expensive to use on a set of speakers that retail in the high 4 figures, and sometimes well over $10,000 a pair.

 

I think we're past the point of changing any minds here and are well into navel-gazing territory.  Still, I can't help but reply to the above.

 

Your comparison is utterly nonsensical. Because one material may be better for a house doesn't mean it's better for a speaker.  Have you been reading the posts above yours?  You seem to be ignoring the convincing arguments for why MDF is better for speakers: less resonant, far more consistent from one sheet to the next, easier to router/ mill, etc... etc.. 

 

You and Dave seem convinced it's the "bean counters" fault.  I find that hard to believe. I seriously doubt Richard Vandersteen choses MDF over Birch plywood for his $40,000 speakers because it reduces construction costs by $75.  ..Besides, isn't MDF much heavier?   Wouldn't that mean the small savings in construction costs are negated by the greater expensive of shipping them out dealers? 

 

More likely, plywood is a pain in the butt to work with (ever try routing plywood?) and each sheet is different from the next.  Even with my limited carpentry experience I have seen plywood sheets with warps, and inconsistencies in thickness and density.  ...Not a good thing if you want each product rolling off the assembly line to be the same, etc...