Thinking of adding subwoofer with La Scalas

[DizRotus]

Thanks for the photos.  What a great space.

 

With all that space, I would suggest two large tapped horn subs.  In some ways larger units are easier to DIY than smaller units requiring more precise cuts.  They could be painted to match that fantastic decor.  Subs could be built that would function as stands for the La Scalas.  In addition to large size providing large performance (you can’t break the laws of physics), they would be less vulnerable to accidental damage or disappearance.

 

I’ve attached a photo showing one of my small DIY tapped horn subs in my small space.  Please ignore the clutter, including two pair of pro Heresys in the foreground.  The small DIY Anarchy Exodus TH sub is visible at the left with a pic-a-nic (homage to Yogi) basket and small single driver on it.  Imagine your subs on a scale to support La Scalas (tethered to the wall for security).  Raising the La Scalas would also improve their room filling ability.

 

There are many forum members with more knowledge and practical experience with large format subs than I.  Some who come to mind are: @CECAA850, @jason str, and @ClaudeJ1.  There are many others with valuable knowledge and experience.

 

 

While searching for the above photo I ran across the following.  The kids might enjoy seeing their speakers if used as car speakers.

 

[CECAA850]

A couple Cinema F 20s would be an easy build and work well there.  You have plenty of floor space.

[DizRotus]

To clarify, horn-loaded or tapped horn subs blend better with La Scalas than smaller formats,  and you have the space.  Size does matter.

[Panelhead]

  I was feeling the same. Was trying to purchase a tapped horn flat pack to build one. This fell through. 

  Ended up adjusting the crossover setting a little, bumping up the output a little. My sub is really contributing now. But cannot tell that it is playing even on tracks with heavy bass. The bass all seems to be coming from the La Scala’s. 

  It is a professional sealed sub with a 12 inch driver. Does weigh about 80 pounds. Have another, same brand, the is a lot larger with push - pull 12 inch drivers. Leaving it in the attic for now. But it would keep up with the LS II at extreme SPL. 

  I think we sometimes over think subwoofers. Most of the output is inaudible. We feel it and do not actually hear the notes below 50 Hz. Some subs suffer from “doubling” and we hear a multiple of the fundamentals. I think think is the “fast” subwoofers. 

  Bandwidth limited to 60 Hz, like my setup, it is impossible to sound fast. 

[ClaudeJ1]

9 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

I was feeling the same. Was trying to purchase a tapped horn flat pack to build one. This fell through. 

Since sub woofers below 60 Hz. seem to be my specialty (below 40 Hz. in my living room), all I can say is that it's all FEEL below those frequencies, since the wavelengths are so LLLLLLONG.

[Dave A]

38 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

  I was feeling the same. Was trying to purchase a tapped horn flat pack to build one. This fell through. 

  Ended up adjusting the crossover setting a little, bumping up the output a little. My sub is really contributing now. But cannot tell that it is playing even on tracks with heavy bass. The bass all seems to be coming from the La Scala’s. 

  It is a professional sealed sub with a 12 inch driver. Does weigh about 80 pounds. Have another, same brand, the is a lot larger with push - pull 12 inch drivers. Leaving it in the attic for now. But it would keep up with the LS II at extreme SPL. 

  I think we sometimes over think subwoofers. Most of the output is inaudible. We feel it and do not actually hear the notes below 50 Hz. Some subs suffer from “doubling” and we hear a multiple of the fundamentals. I think think is the “fast” subwoofers. 

  Bandwidth limited to 60 Hz, like my setup, it is impossible to sound fast. 

You just need to stack those La Scalas on a set of S-MWM's. Honest they will fit right on top no trouble.

[Panelhead]

  My listening area is a loft. The floor space might be enough to hold a pair of those S-MWM. But I would be stacked on top of one and the La Scala’s on the other. 

  It pressurizes a large volume. Not as large as your labORatory. But most of the house is open to the loft. A 12 inch sealed sub rattles everything. But has a solid class AB amplifier built in. And of course a strong power supply. 

[Islander]

57 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

Ended up adjusting the crossover setting a little, bumping up the output a little. My sub is really contributing now. But cannot tell that it is playing even on tracks with heavy bass. The bass all seems to be coming from the La Scala’s. 

 

I think we sometimes over think subwoofers. Most of the output is inaudible. We feel it and do not actually hear the notes below 50 Hz. Some subs suffer from “doubling” and we hear a multiple of the fundamentals. I think think is the “fast” subwoofers. 

  Bandwidth limited to 60 Hz, like my setup, it is impossible to sound fast. 

 

Musical instruments put out several sounds at once.  With a bass guitar, for example, there’s the fundamental note from the vibrating string or strings, then you have the overtones, which are higher in pitch.  Finally, you have the sounds produced by the player’s pick or fingers.  Much of what comes out of the sub is low-volume murmuring, which can sound kind of meaningless by itself, but it adds solidity to the music, and can even give the listener a greater sense of the room in which the recording was made, if it was recorded with the whole group at the same time.  This sound can be felt more than heard, and is difficult to localize, because the sound waves are so long that the delay between the time the sound reaches one ear, and then the other ear, doesn’t provide enough difference for us to get a sense of where the sound is coming from.

 

However, the sound of the player’s fingers or pick on the strings is at a higher pitch, and can easily be localized, since the much shorter wavelengths mean there may be a few full waves in the space between one ear and the other.  Most of this sound is coming from your main speakers, giving the impression that all the bass is coming from your La Scalas, and that the sub is doing very little.  As you can see, that’s an illusion created by the string sound and the finger or pick sound being produced at the same time.

 

Finally, when setting the subwoofer’s high frequency cutoff, keep in mind that the number on the dial is not a hard limit.  If you set the sub at 80 Hz, for example, that’s the point at which the sub’s response starts to taper off, plus it has a natural rolloff of its own.  The same thing applies to the woofers in the La Scalas (or any speaker).  The factory specs may state that the speaker plays down to a certain pitch, say 45 Hz, but that’s usually measured when the response has gone down by 3-4 dB.  In the case of the La Scala, its bass response starts to roll off at 100 Hz or so.  If you set the sub’s hi-cut at the speaker’s stated low-frequency cut-off, there will be a big dip in volume in the transition zone.

 

This means that the speaker and the sub need to have some overlap where they meet.  You can set the sub’s hi-cut as high as 120 Hz to get a smooth transition from the speaker’s low bass to the sub’s lower low bass.  Don’t just take my word for it.  Experiment with a few different settings and take notes.  The setting that produces the most true-to-life sound is the right one.

 

The sub level is important too, of course.  The goal is a smooth transition between speakers and sub, with them sharing the music, neither one dominating.  A sound pressure level (SPL) meter and a test CD are all you need to get a good match between your sub and your speakers.  The two should not cost you much more than $100 together, possibly less, and are available at most musical instrument stores or pro audio shops.

 

You and the boys and girls have done some really nice work.  I hope you’ll be listening to your handiwork for years to come!

[Dave A]

3 hours ago, Panelhead said:

  My listening area is a loft. The floor space might be enough to hold a pair of those S-MWM. But I would be stacked on top of one and the La Scala’s on the other. 

  It pressurizes a large volume. Not as large as your labORatory. But most of the house is open to the loft. A 12 inch sealed sub rattles everything. But has a solid class AB amplifier built in. And of course a strong power supply. 

Excuses excuses.

[DizRotus]

I just re-read the old thread below.  Given your available space, I agree with Carl’s, @CECAA850, suggestion to go with a pair of Cinema F-20s.

 

Here is a link to a post from the designer of F 20.

 

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1329971-lilmike-s-cinema-f-20-a.html