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Eye Opening Experience


Tarheel TJ

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Hey Bruce--how's the weather?  I believe that I understood what the last three guys said about their own systems.

 

But the OP's first account gave the distinct impression that he is wondering how what he has is making the difference in sound quality from something priced at perhaps 50X-100X greater.  This is a subject of some interest and its discussion can be really useful to those contemplating high dollar purchases (particularly on things that don't make much difference in sound).  I find that people usually pay a high price for audio gear because they otherwise don't know any better. 

 

Even people with a lot of money in their bank accounts don't spend it unless they have to...else they wouldn't have money for long.

 

Chris

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My wife's boss has Proac K6 powered by Octave pre/pro and power amps that run so hot he had to install exhaust fans in his custom built stereo room.  All digital sources.  Fantastic sound.  Cables on nice little towers.    Tracy Chapman (stand by me) and Midnight Sugar" by Yamamoto, Tsuyoshi Trio were outstanding.  Honestly a very nice setup.  But, the sad part is no one else in his family listens.

 

Meanwhile, I make my own Cat5 cables, modify crossovers and speakers (Super Heresy setup thanks to @ClaudeJ1) and augment speakers in surround sound (Martin Logans and Klispch) to come close.  He knows about sound gear from going to shows and buying, I don't know 1% of what folks on this forum know, but I have fun trying and modifying my own "stuff".  While his system is wonderful, I know which of the two of us gets more value out of our gear.  My daughters and husbands, and wife occasionally, all listen in.  One son in law (electrician) is certainly interested in all the cables/crossovers and drivers.  Other son in law wants to build speaker cabinets.  It is becoming a family hobby.

 

A friend told me once not to chase what others have, because when you catch up to one guy you'll just find someone ahead of both of you.

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Like this...

 

10 minutes ago, MC39693 said:

My wife's boss has Proac K6 powered by Octave pre/pro and power amps that run so hot he had to install exhaust fans in his custom built stereo room. 

This isn't something that's desirable in my experience.  That's more like "getting lost in the metaphor" as Joseph Campbell was fond of saying.

 

I believe it was PWK that said that he found a new law of audio: "the higher the efficiency, the lower the distortion".  I think that he was right...within the understanding just what he meant by that "law". 

 

Chris

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Chris, the weather is a bit cool, was in the 20s at night. It is supposed to get in the upper 50s tomorrow and warmer on Saturday.

 

It's easy for me to poo poo systems that cost twice what my house cost. It's also good to understand what is happening, and your technical detail really helps decipher what is going on, and it is really appreciated.

 

Bruce

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I tend to believe that when one encounters an awesome sounding system, what they're really encountering are awesome speakers in a well treated room.  All the other equipment matters far less. 

 

I recall being incredibly impressed when I heard Vandersteen 5A sigs when was shopping for speakers years ago.  They were way out of my price range but since business was slow the dealer allowed me to listen for as long as I cared to.  ..After about 20 mins, one of the sales people came and asked if he could take the big Mark Levinson amp that was being used into another listening room for another customer.  Of course, I didn't mind at all - I was happy they allowed me to spend so much time listening to speakers I had no intention (or means) to buy.   .So that I could continue listening, the salesperson quickly connected the speaker cables to an NAD 375Bee Integrated sitting on the next rack over.

 

When I connected my iPod (yes, that long ago) to the 1/8" jack on the faceplate  and continued listening, It sounded every bit as impressive as it did w/ the absurdly expensive Mark Levinson amps and (if memory serves) NAIM cd player.  If uber expensive front end gear is so much better, shouldn't there have been an unmistakeable drop in sound quality??

 

Again, I would urge beginners reading this thread to consider that it's the speakers, and proper room acoustics that make the system.  Modern day cd players are indistinguishable from one another and so too are amps so long as they engineered to be linear AND operated within their design limits.  

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I tend to believe that when one encounters an awesome sounding system, what they're really encountering are awesome speakers in a well treated room.  All the other equipment matters far less. 

 

This is so blatantly wrong, it's hard for anyone to know where to start.........

 

Shakey

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I'm sure you can't, since you are another one of those with a quite narrow view on the subject.

 

I've heard amps with similar power ratings and topologies that sounded so dissimilar that you would have to be hearing impaired not to notice the difference from outside the listening room.

 

A system is just that. It is comprised of many more facets than just a pair of speakers cobbled together with whatever might be available. Please don't be so obtuse as to disagree with that..........

 

 

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Maynard... Chris' profile still has this listed:

 

Amplifiers: First Watt F3 driving TAD TD-4002s on Jub K-402 HF horns, Crown D-75As bi-amping center, surrounds, front bass bins, and Crown XTi-1000s driving TH subs.

Preamplifier/DAC/crossovers: Onyko PR-SC886 w/Burr-Brown PCM1796 DACs, Xilica XP-8080 (crossing Jubs, crossing center 3-way K-402-MEH), Electrovoice Dx38 EQing Cornwall surrounds, XTi-1000 DSPs EQing subs.

Sources: Oppo BDP-103, PS3, netbook running foobar2000 with CD/DVD-A collection ripped to FLAC and connected via HDMI to AVP.

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

...consider that it's the speakers, and proper room acoustics that make the system.

I agree in principle to this, however, if you're going to listen to phonograph-based recordings, I've actually experienced a difference between a so-so turntable/cartridge setup and a much better one, but I've found that there is a definite limit to the sound quality that you're going to get out of phonograph records.  Hence my comment about phonograph cartridges above.  You also need a quiet TT that's got low wow/flutter.  [Not that I'd recommend listening to records over their similarly dynamic CD counterparts (suitably corrected of mastering EQ that was put there to "improve the sound").]

 

This is what I've experienced with the K-402/TAD 4002 Jubilees: once you get a suitably fast-slewing amplifier on the compression drivers, I really can't tell the difference between good amplifiers--after re-dialing in the frequency response of the loudspeakers...and many amplifiers have unique sound signatures due to this little issue, I've found. 

 

There is a small amount of difference in amplifiers having lower amounts of intermodulation distortion (i.e., amplifiers having more than two gain stages vs. those having only one or two gain stages).  Notably the amplifiers sounding less realistic and more opaque are BJT-based solid state amplifiers that have been designed with moderate amounts of negative feedback, thus requiring more gain stages.  These amplifiers seem to experience more "dynamic noise floor" and opaqueness (i.e., intermodulation distortion) than simpler amplifier designs. (Notably, I like the First Watt series of amplifiers by Nelson Pass, which don't have the maintenance issues that tubes/valves bring with them.)

 

It seems that the better the loudspeakers, the less difference in sound when using good amplifiers. The more issues that you have with your room and loudspeakers, the more differences that I've heard.  This isn't a comment on the amplifiers but primarily the loudspeakers and rooms themselves.  If you tell me that you're hearing differences in relatively well performing amplifiers having one or two gain stages, then I'd say that you have a loudspeaker or room acoustic problem.  If you tell me that your listening to your loudspeakers at very close ranges because they sound better that way--like computer loudspeakers--then you definitely have unresolved issues (and are probably in denial  :wink: ).  I can expand on this subject much more, but the issues are early reflections and directivity control, perhaps even direct radiating bass that you must play at the lowest level possible to avoid modulation distortion from stealing the sense of liveness from the presentation. 

 

Those caveats on upstream phonograph setups and power amplifiers are noted above, but notably are "in the weeds" as far as A-B testing.  You typically need some time with each component in excess of a direct A-B and a few notable recordings of the quality and revealing nature to show you the differences (sometimes hit-or-miss to find the differences based on the source music).  It's not something that might knock you down. You also need a good room acoustic environment and really good loudspeakers, I've found.  I'd characterize these differences more like the difference that musicians hear in playback versus perhaps someone that listens to electrically synthesized and amplified music all the time and haven't spent much time in an orchestra or band hall or perhaps a capella vocal room practicing their listening skills.

 

When you get everything dialed in and the loudspeaker/room acoustics issues ironed out, I find there is a sense of space that emerges, but this is a pretty high bar that I've only experienced with the Jubs and perhaps one or two other systems over my listening lifespan.  That's a pretty high bar, but one that can pull you into the listening sessions.  (I hope this will appease somewhat Marty's comments above implying that I'm not personally engaged in the music because I also measure the stuff in my setup.  If anything, I'd wager that my involvement is perhaps more intense, but that's purely speculation.)  I'm listening to the following AIX recording in 5.1 at 83 dBC on the setup as I type this, and it's amazing in a way that the stereo tracks simply could not accomplish:

 

81D2HLlkLWL._SY445_.jpg

 

Chris

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Recently, there was yet another "debate" on the subject of the audibility of modulation distortion in another forum.  One notable acoustician was claiming (once again) that it's inaudible and therefore, doesn't matter.  (Never mind that the author has also stated that be hasn't heard fully horn-loaded loudspeakers that are well performing, or that he doesn't listen to classical music, the type of recordings which I find to be the biggest discriminators of loudspeaker/room acoustics sound quality.)  This brought back to mind the words of PWK on his now famous three articles on modulation distortion in JAES (1969):

 

Quote

INITIAL OBSERVATIONS


Two loudspeakers, one with direct radiator bass and the other with horn-loaded bass, have been compared in listening tests. Nineteen out of 20 listeners judged that the one with the horn-loaded bass is “cleaner”. Both loudspeakers were by the same manufacturer. Both had similar horn-loaded midrange and treble system with identical midrange and treble drive motors. The direct radiator unit offered a more extended bass range, with cutoff about 30 Hz compared to the horn-loaded bass cutoff of about 45 Hz. Thus, if the listener preference were predicated on frequency response the leaning should have been toward the direct radiator unit, but the opposite choice was indicated. The words “transparent”, “better resolution”, and “clarity of the inner voices” were applied to the speaker with the horn-loaded bass.


Single-frequency distortion tests indicated that both loudspeakers generate negligible harmonic distortion at the power levels used in the listening tests. Both showed accurate power linearity up to 120 dB SPL measured at 4 ft, as indicated by parallelism of frequency response curves run at 0.1, 1.0 and 10 W input. Hysteresis effects, if any, were below the resolving power of the measuring equipment used.


By elimination it appears that the cause of the difference in listening quality must be modulation distortion.

I believe that this thread opened on the subject of "inner detail" and transparency.

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Another author (Keith Howard from the UK, writing for Stereophile in "Red shift: Doppler distortion in loudspeakers") has done independent testing of FM distortion (a.k.a., Doppler):

 

Quote

Listening results
Choosing appropriate source material is key to any listening test for Doppler distortion. Ideally, you're looking for sustained high-level bass content coupled with a clearly defined but sparse harmonic structure at higher frequencies, so that there will be minimal masking of the FIM sidebands. You can either sift available recordings for suitable examples or, more practically, concoct your own, which is what I did.

 

Instruments of the flute family are ideal for providing the delineated high-frequency harmonic structure. I used the single-instrument flute recording...from the European Broadcasting Union's CD of Sound Quality Assessment Material (SQAM). A short excerpt was taken from this—a few seconds of the right material are quite enough for detecting whether Doppler sidebands are audible—and mixed with a 100Hz sinewave at –10dBFS to ensure constant high-level low-frequency excitation. This file was then processed to simulate peak diaphragm excursions of 1mm, 3.16mm, and 10mm (ie, in 10dB steps), following which the 100Hz component was (largely) removed from the output files by mix-pasting it a second time, but in antiphase...

 

...The results were intriguing. Distortion of the flute was gross at 10mm peak diaphragm displacement and not in the least bit euphonic. On the contrary, Doppler made the sound as harsh as you might expect of a distortion mechanism that introduces intermodulation products. At 3.16mm peak displacement (below Fryer's suggested detectability threshold) the distortion level was obviously lower but still clearly audible; and even at 1mm it could still be heard affecting the flute's timbre and adding "edge."

Chris

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3 hours ago, ODS123 said:

When I connected my iPod (yes, that long ago) to the 1/8" jack on the faceplate  and continued listening, It sounded every bit as impressive as it did w/ the absurdly expensive Mark Levinson amps and (if memory serves) NAIM cd player.  If uber expensive front end gear is so much better, shouldn't there have been an unmistakeable drop in sound quality??

 

An iPod. Seriously?

 

So, you thought you were listening to the amplifier's output stage when you plugged into the headphone jack of the preamplifier section?

 

When did Mark Levinson put a 1/8" headphone jack on anything?

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On 11/29/2018 at 1:21 PM, Chris A said:

 

Those caveats on upstream phonograph setups and power amplifiers are noted above, but notably are "in the weeds" as far as A-B testing. 

 

I certainly agree with you on Phonographs.   ..My previous TT's - both belt-drives - had very audible flutter and inaccurate speed.  ..Piano notes on, just for example, George Winston December, would warble audible on all of my previous TT's.  ..Thankfully, not so on my brand new Technics SL-12010GR.   But there is so much surface noise on LP's that it becomes the limiting factor for total enjoyment.  ..I tend to be someone who believes that analog - even the very best rigs - doesn't come close to the sound quality of well recorded CD's and other digital forms.  

 

...The beauty of the analog era is that advancing to the next song was such a PIA that people had little choice but to hear a whole album side thus getting a sense of the connectedness b/w the songs and the theme of the album.  Today, digital streaming has allowed everyone to develop musical ADD.  ..People listen only the most accessible song(s) on an album, then move on.  ..Plus, all the included content of LPs - posters, lyric sheets, rolling papers :) - is gone.  That's were all the romance with analog comes from, imho.

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16 minutes ago, Deang said:

 

An iPod. Seriously?

 

So, you thought you were listening to the amplifier's output stage when you plugged into the headphone jack of the preamplifier section?

 

When did Mark Levinson put a 1/8" headphone jack on anything?

 

I was listening to cd's when listening through the Levinson amp.  ..Don't remember the pre-amp, it was probably a Levinson pre-amp as well.  ..CD's played through a NAIM cd player.

 

After removing the Levinson amp he connected the Vandersteen 5A sigs to the NAD 375bee which is an INTEGRATED amp,.  ..All the music I had on the CD's  (Makaha Sons of Ni'ihau, various Steely Dan, etc..).   I also had as lossless  (not that that entirely matters - but hat's a whole other area of audiophile nonsense which I'll skip for now) files.  

 

Again, I did not hear one IOTA of drop in quality from the Levinson to the NAD.  And I played it as loud as they would allow through both setups.

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I see. So the iPod connected to the front end of the NAD (the preamp section) sounded just as good as the Levinson setup and NAIM?

 

I listened to some LaScalas once with an iPod as the source. It wasn't pretty. Those files were also lossless.

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