Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
Sign in to follow this  
buf

How much toe-in do you use

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

The distance from the speaker to your listening position is only relational to toe in if you want to sit directly "on axis". I would recommend not doing this with Forte IIIs. In my experience they sound best when only slightly toed in. Much more than that and they can get a little "hot" in the midrange. When you get it right, it will be very obvious.

 

The usual disclaimers apply, JMHO and YMMV, etc., etc............

 

Shakey

Agreed after owning them and taking your advice.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 6:48 PM, Deang said:

18” off the wall. Toe them in until the midrange horns are pointed at your listening position. 

 

dido for my forte II's  - ~16-18" off the wall and pointing at my chair an just over 6' apart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jut picked up my FIII's and have spent a few hours trying to get them dialed in. They are 7 feet apart center to center, 19.5" from front wall, and slightly toed in so axis would be just behind listening position. I started with them about six feet apart and axis crossing just in front of listening position. Pulling them apart that foot and reducing the toe in created a much larger sound stage. Working on getting the bass evened out now as best I can and a few other variables. 

image.jpeg

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, veloceleste said:

Jut picked up my FIII's and have spent a few hours trying to get them dialed in.

Looks nice, even not being done, what do you think so far?

 

I love the slats on that table or stand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually set my speakers to cross about a foot behind my head.

 

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think there is any "perfect" or "ideal" amount of toe-in.  Different degrees of toe-in give different results, so use what suits your listening preferences, which may even vary over time.  With the La Scalas, I started out with them facing me directly, which was about 30 degrees from straight ahead.  They sounded great, but the sweet spot was only about a foot wide at most.  This meant that if anyone was sitting beside me on the sofa, both of us could not be in the ideal spot (rather than area) at the same time, which took away from the listening experience.

 

To improve this, I reduced the toe-in, which made the sweet spot wider, a good thing.  The position that I settled on was maybe 25 degrees of toe-in.  In the fully reclined position that seems most suitable for listening with your eyes closed (that's how you know you're listening seriously, right?), the inner sides of the speakers line up exactly with my eyes.  The left speaker's inboard side is even with my left eye, meaning that the inboard front and rear corners line up.  The right speaker lines up with my right eye.  This means that the axes of the speakers cross a bit behind my head, and the sweet spot is roughly twice as wide, which is more practical, and sounds just as good.  Now and them, just to confirm the speakers haven't been sneaking around or even just fidgeting a bit while I've been away from them, I look at the left one with my right eye closed, and then check the right speaker with my left eye closed, to confirm everything still lines up.  So far, they've always been just where I left them.

 

To make the lining-up easer, instead of doing all kinds of measuring, I just use a laser level.  First, fully recline the sofa or otherwise make sure your seating is set up the way it is when you're doing some serious listening, and then note the spot where your head sits.  You can even use a dummy head, or a football, or a watermelon, to make it easier to picture exactly where the laser beam meets your sofa or chair.  With the level held against the inboard side of the speaker, see if it lines up with your ear, left speaker with left ear, and right speaker with right ear.  If not, rotate the speaker until it does line up with where you sit.  Do the other speaker, and then you're all set.

 

Using the laser, which is often available on sale for not much money (I got mine at Canadian Tire, which started out selling tires and auto parts, but now sells nearly every home and garden item as well as mechanical and carpentry tools), makes it easy to line up the speakers to suit your needs at the moment, or just to experiment and see what happens with various degrees of toe-in.  That's what's handy about the steel button feet on La Scalas; it makes them easy to slide around on carpet, or on small carpets if you have hardwood floors.

 

As for the distance from the front wall, there are various ways to go.  I went for the smoothest, most even, bass response.  The best position turned out to be with the corner of the speaker that's nearest to the wall being 6 inches/15 cm. from the wall.  With any degree of toe-in this means the rear inboard corners of the speakers.

 

Many hi-fi advice columns recommend that speakers be placed well out from every nearby wall, left, right, and front.  However, Klipsch speakers, in most cases, are designed to benefit from the effects of nearby boundary surfaces.  The most extreme example is, of course, the Klipschorn, which must be set tightly into the corner to sound its best, but most Klipsch speakers sound best when they're placed in corners.  Also, most of the Heritage speakers, in particular, are pretty big, so if they're out in the middle of the room, normal-sized rooms start looking pretty small and terribly congested.

 

I hope this wasn't too oversimplified.  It will be old news to long-time members and some experienced new members, but it may be useful to new Klipsch owners.  Congrats on getting yourself some great speakers, and welcome to the forum!

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Chris A said:

It's the nearfield acoustic reflections between your loudspeakers that cause the issues that leads to zero toe-in, including other loudspeakers that are just sitting there.  Move all the stuff from between the loudspeakers, then try toe-in again...the results will be very different. 

 

I'd also recommend more absorption on the floor just in front of the loudspeakers--out to 3-4 feet, perhaps a little on the side walls next to the loudspeakers, too.  Try tacking up some fuzzy blankets temporarily, then listen to a high quality recording.

 

Chris

 

 

I very much appreciate your suggestions but this isn't my first rodeo. The La Scala's sound best with no toe in my listening space.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think there is any "perfect" or "ideal" amount of toe-in.  Different degrees of toe-in give different results, so use what suits your listening preferences, which may even vary over time.  With the La Scalas, I started out with them facing me directly, which was about 30 degrees from straight ahead.  They sounded great, but the sweet spot was only about a foot wide at most.  This meant that if anyone was sitting beside me on the sofa, both of us could not be in the ideal spot (rather than area) at the same time, which took away from the listening experience.
 
To improve this, I reduced the toe-in, which made the sweet spot wider, a good thing.  The position that I settled on was maybe 25 degrees of toe-in.  In the fully reclined position that seems most suitable for listening with your eyes closed (that's how you know you're listening seriously, right?), the inner sides of the speakers line up exactly with my eyes.  The left speaker's inboard side is even with my left eye, meaning that the inboard front and rear corners line up.  The right speaker lines up with my right eye.  This means that the axes of the speakers cross a bit behind my head, and the sweet spot is roughly twice as wide, which is more practical, and sounds just as good.  Now and them, just to confirm the speakers haven't been sneaking around or even just fidgeting a bit while I've been away from them, I look at the left one with my right eye closed, and then check the right speaker with my left eye closed, to confirm everything still lines up.  So far, they've always been just where I left them.
 
To make the lining-up easer, instead of doing all kinds of measuring, I just use a laser level.  First, fully recline the sofa or otherwise make sure your seating is set up the way it is when you're doing some serious listening, and then note the spot where your head sits.  You can even use a dummy head, or a football, or a watermelon, to make it easier to picture exactly where the laser beam meets your sofa or chair.  With the level held against the inboard side of the speaker, see if it lines up with your ear, left speaker with left ear, and right speaker with right ear.  If not, rotate the speaker until it does line up with where you sit.  Do the other speaker, and then you're all set.
 
Using the laser, which is often available on sale for not much money (I got mine at Canadian Tire, which started out selling tires and auto parts, but now sells nearly every home and garden item as well as mechanical and carpentry tools), makes it easy to line up the speakers to suit your needs at the moment, or just to experiment and see what happens with various degrees of toe-in.  That's what's handy about the steel button feet on La Scalas; it makes them easy to slide around on carpet, or on small carpets if you have hardwood floors.
 
As for the distance from the front wall, there are various ways to go.  I went for the smoothest, most even, bass response.  The best position turned out to be with the corner of the speaker that's nearest to the wall being 6 inches/15 cm. from the wall.  With any degree of toe-in this means the rear inboard corners of the speakers.
 
Many hi-fi advice columns recommend that speakers be placed well out from every nearby wall, left, right, and front.  However, Klipsch speakers, in most cases, are designed to benefit from the effects of nearby boundary surfaces.  The most extreme example is, of course, the Klipschorn, which must be set tightly into the corner to sound its best, but most Klipsch speakers sound best when they're placed in corners.  Also, most of the Heritage speakers, in particular, are pretty big, so if they're out in the middle of the room, normal-sized rooms start looking pretty small and terribly congested.
 
I hope this wasn't too oversimplified.  It will be old news to long-time members and some experienced new members, but it may be useful to new Klipsch owners.  Congrats on getting yourself some great speakers, and welcome to the forum!

My LaScalas are stuffed into the corners at 45 degrees. Equal reflections from rear and side walls. Near perfect imaging from anywhere in the room. My Heresys are on stands in the rear at 45 degrees. Just following PWK’s recommendations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Khorns aim directly at me with zero fatigue(Dean dialed the mid's back on the xover), my past La Scalas made my ears feel like they were bleeding when facing directly at me so i faced them straight with no toe in and i liked them.  My Chorus II were always toed in slightly to the back of me.  I never stopped tinkering with the Chorus and i continue to tinker with them in the open floor plan living room for HT(and some times music).  Very slight toe in right now.  Still nothing sounds good because the room just doesn't work for audio. I can only get it acceptable when i bring out the speakers far into the room like the cardas rule and face forward with no toe in and use 2 subs with it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Islander said:

I don't think there is any "perfect" or "ideal" amount of toe-in.  Different degrees of toe-in give different results, so use what suits your listening preferences, which may even vary over time.

Very true and it also applies to many other parts of this hobby. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, dtel said:

Looks nice, even not being done, what do you think so far?

 

I love the slats on that table or stand.

Thanks! The stand is a BDI Corridor series. I like the look too and the slats offer some ventilation. The bottom, interior shelves and cabinet top also have ventilation slots and the glass top is raised to allow heat to exit.

 

As for the Forte III's, they are part of a system simplification and desire to change my listening habits to listen at lower volume. My current and soon to be past speakers are Bryston Mini-T's which are vertically bi-amped. The Mini-T's are fantastic and my favorite speaker of all time that I have owned. The FIII's are more dynamic at lower volume, throw a wider but less precise soundstage, and are not quite as detailed as the Brystons.

 

I have to get the bass dialed in. My room is difficult. There is a peak somewhere in the upper bass with FIII's. It took bass traps to get rid of the peak with the Bryston speakers. I started with traps in place with the FIII's and ended up removing them and moving the FIII's closer to the front wall. That helped a lot. It is interesting to experience how different speaker designs load the room with bass. The Brystons were farther away from the front and side walls and toed in a bit more. It is a matter of difference for me between the Fortes and Brystons, not better or worse.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/6/2018 at 3:33 PM, Schu said:

I love toe...

You're just bad, but funny 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2018 at 4:18 PM, Emile said:

Just for you :D 

giphy.gif?cid=3640f6095c085c886d4c665173

I don’t need a maid but I think I need one of those uniforms for my wife if you know what I mean.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually have experimented with setting my Cornwalls and La Scalas at 45 degrees - right in a corner. I like it very much this way as it tends to even out the channels and reduce the mids of the LS quite a bit. I read a white paper on it and decided to give it a try.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still experimenting with my LaScalas.

 

 They are 13 feet apart in a 12 X 25 room. 9 feet from MLP.   Toed in slightly.   Like I said... still experimenting.   Setting them in corners is not a possibility. ... doorways and windows. We tend to sit on the floor. Horns at eye level.

 

Suggestions are welcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...