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Khorn 2 way with K510?


Maximus89

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Has anyone done active 2 way khorns with k510s? Do they work well together? I recall Roy saying the la scala dog house is closer in design to the jubilee LF than the Khorn. 

 

just got done demoing @Born2RockUs Jubilees(LCR Jubes with faital pro drives and Danley sub) for the first time and I’m blown away.

Can’t afford to go Jubes with K402 so looking at different options. Could potentially go Jubilee with K510 if I sold most of my speakers including the Khorns but wondering if the Klipschorns LF with K510 would sound good since I wouldn’t have a sub and the low end of the khorn sounds great in corners to me. 

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the Jubilee exists because a Khorn could not be used as a two way it simply does not have enough upper end response to make it up to even the K400 really well and K510 is higher again so you would have a big hole. You would need a very large horn 30 inches wide or more to get down low enough to mate to a Khorn at which point you run into top end response issues of the mid horn and you end up needing a tweeter or having to accept a top end roll off.

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This can be done, I personally would not try to do it using passive crossovers because of the following issues:

  • The Khorn bass bin on-axis frequency response falls off a little too rapidly above 400 Hz to join up with the bottom end of a K-510 horn's on-axis response, i.e., there's a bit of a hole in the spectrum that needs to be closed via boost equalization that is available in DSP crossovers, but not passives.  This one factor has stopped a lot of people from trying this using passive crossover technology. 
     
  • The success of using a K-402 on top of a Khorn bass bin is partially due to the overlap in polar coverage with the Khorn bass bin natural response within the crossover interference band by using shallower slope crossover filters, and the K-510 horn really cannot cross at a low enough frequency to mitigate the increased mismatch of polar coverage (i.e., the Khorn's coverage polars are a bit narrow above 450 Hz--which is partially why its on-axis response falls off so rapidly).
     
  • The Khorn bass bin has a pretty substantial path length difference with the K-510/2" compression driver--even more than a K-400 horn/K-55 driver.  This contributes even more to what is termed "timbre issues"--due to increased time misalignment.  A DSP crossover can correct this easily, but not a passive. 

Other than those issues, I think it's possible to do, but it will take some measurements in-room using a calibrated microphone and something like REW, in addition to a DSP crossover.  You can talk to Craig about how this works.  There isn't a lot of latitude between these horns/drivers in terms of overlapping capability, so it needs to be guided by actual measurements and not just using one's ears, otherwise you'll wind up with a frequency response hole right in the middle of the midrange (400-600 Hz). 

 

As far as what you can expect in terms of improvement in sound quality--I think that you'll be extremely pleased, but I'd strongly recommend a fairly good 2" compression driver, and not a K-691 (YMMV).  I'd recommend a FaitalPRO HF20AT or possibly a HF2000 (which I've never actually heard before, but I'm told it is the replacement for the HF20AT), or the BMS 4592ND dual diaphragm driver at about same price the FaitalPRO HF2000--if bought from Thomann online from Germany (taking about 3-5 days to ship to your doorstep, in my experience).  You will get best performance bi-amping this driver, but it can be passively crossed if it's a real issue tri-amping your arrangement with the BMS driver (i.e, a real three-way configuration).  You'll need at least 6 output channels from a DSP crossover to do this (i.e., you'll need two miniDSP 2x4 HDs, for instance, or a Xilica XP4080). 

 

Chris

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Actually, you can talk to @Delicious2 (Mark Haskins) about using Khorn bass bins and K-402 assemblies on top, thus saving significant dollars over full-up Jubilees if you can locate a pair of relatively inexpensive used Khorns in good condition (usually available in the $1500 range if you bargain).  I think that Mark's very pleased with the results.  I know that the REW measurements of the differences between Jubilees and Khorn/K-402s was smaller than I expected--surprisingly good, in fact. 

 

I think this combination (Khorn bass bins with K-402 tops) is probably one of the best well-kept secret around on the forum...but Mark will, I'm sure, let you know about the listening differences.

 

Chris

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Good to know.  I sometimes think of Klipsch as a gift waiting for all of us to truly discover (...as you apparently experienced it).

 

Chris

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23 hours ago, Chris A said:

Actually, you can talk to @Delicious2 (Mark Haskins) about using Khorn bass bins and K-402 assemblies on top, thus saving significant dollars over full-up Jubilees if you can locate a pair of relatively inexpensive used Khorns in good condition (usually available in the $1500 range if you bargain).  I think that Mark's very pleased with the results.  I know that the REW measurements of the differences between Jubilees and Khorn/K-402s was smaller than I expected--surprisingly good, in fact. 

 

I think this combination (Khorn bass bins with K-402 tops) is probably one of the best well-kept secret around on the forum...but Mark will, I'm sure, let you know about the listening differences.

 

Chris

I must say up front that I've never heard Jubilees.  I already had 1990 Khorns which I had modded and enjoyed for years when I went K402 on top recently.  I Initially dialed them in with Chris' help going active with a Xilica 4080 and amps I already had driving the Khorn bass bins and BMS 4592 NDs (coaxial) on top as a 3 way.  I have never before experienced that great a leap in performance of a system in the same room!  The wide open, dynamic, "live" sound of the K402 has to be heard and my Khorn bass bins have never sounded near this good.  Together they have a cohesiveness that is addictive.

 

You could go much of the way on this road with about $2200 for the K402/K691/stand set and about $900 for the Xilica.  Use 4 lower powered/ lower gain (or adjustable) amp channels that you may already have for a 2 way active setup and prepare to be launched into a new level.

Don't shy away from the calibrated mic and REW software needed to dial these blends in for your room.  I'll walk you through that part if you like and Chris can help with the Parametric EQ to apply in the Xilica software.

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1 hour ago, JohnA said:

A La Scala bass bin or FH-1 with K-33/K-43 will comfortably get up to 500+ Hz and let you use a K-510 HF.  You’ll still likely want a subwoofer for some music. 

Um, I'd look carefully at the low frequency response of the FH-1 before going that direction.  If you're like me, that last octave of missing bass performance is a big one, and shifting the burden to subwoofers is a bit problematic, especially if you're thinking about using direct radiating subs to make up the difference.  I really don't recommend that if clean sound is your goal--unless you're using really good horn-loaded subs.

 

I'd actually recommend staying the course with Khorns but go with K-402s instead.  Much bigger bang/buck...albeit at about a $1K-$2K higher dollar threshold.  To me, it's well worth it to save a little while for the purchase. (You can do it on layaway: just open a new bank account and layaway the money for a little while.  You'll get there much sooner than you think...if you're motivated).

 

A related story:

 

I worked with an interesting guy in the 80's who was a field technologist for the geophysical exploration equipment company we both worked for, his job installing and servicing large airgun arrays on the company's "green weenie" geophysical boats.  He had three pairs of jeans and five shirts--all of the same fatigue green work shirt design and all the jeans had holes in the knees, and he brought his lunch to work every day.  He was the sole breadwinner for his family with two very young daughters.  One day he walked in with the biggest grin you ever saw and waited for someone to ask him about it.  "I bought a plane yesterday...a 1951 Cessna 170 tail-dragger." 

 

[Get it now?]

 

I thereafter flew in that plane with him to take pictures of the devastation on Galveston bay (Houston Yacht Club and the Galveston gulf waterfront) after a hurricane blew through area and had the time of my life--as in I saw it flash in front of my eyes when he put it into kick stall spin for the first time 🤢. That plane wound up faster than a provoked badger in his burrow.  My camera lens case never moved from the back seat floorboard: it was pinned there--like we were, looking straight at a small point on the ground...turning rapidly.  Phil had a big grin on his face the whole time, albeit with slightly bigger eyes. When I finally got out of the plane after an interesting extended slow stalling flight over high voltage electric lines in order to make it down to the landing field without overshooting while landing to the south...I didn't ask him for another ride. 😬  His piloting story was that he flew everywhere in South America since being a young teen, being the son of bible-translating missionaries.

 

It also turns out that he was cross-eyed. The FAA almost took away his license when he jokingly admitted that little known fact to the check-ride pilot after he passed all his check-ride tests.

 

Chris (...still glad to be here...)

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Cesar,  Everything Chris suggest is THE way to go, for your budget. 

 

I will help you all the way, ...with the tuning, using the Xilica XP-4080. 

BUT, If you plan on any future surround system applications...get the xp-8080 like our Klipsch brotha 'Chris A'  has !

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Chris A ..your BESSEL tuning BLEW @Maximus89's mind, yesterday, at my Jubilee demo !

 

Thank you again for all you do !

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