Forte II - trouble taming brightness

[jason str]

37 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

If the problem is "harshness", swapping in new capacitors is not going to solve  the problem. Yes, you are correct, it is a crapshoot. At this point we are relying on the mantra that "capacitors must be replaced ....." We need to think about that one

 

Sure it can, if the capacitor is out of specification drivers can overlap or underlap causing unwanted peaks or dips in frequency response.

 

Capacitors are maintenance items and normally the first thing to go out in aging loudspeakers, its a inexpensive repair and i see no reason not to replace.

[PrestonTom]

The half power point is probably not changing, but the overall output might be.

Replacing them will probably only increase the output at the higher frequencies. That will not tame  "harshness". Besides, slightly changing the half power point on a first order filter (I assume that is what it is) will not make much of a difference.

IMHO, there is an over emphasis on choice of capacitors amongst many around here. 

[jason str]

Granted most of the really bad capacitors i have replaced were electrolytic or oil filled type but have no reason to believe poly and film and foil last forever either.

 

Normally i used Dayton poly caps unless other brands were requested.

[moray james]

8 hours ago, Madman1 said:

So my expert audiophile engineer description is they just sounded better, ha. Smoother and more enjoyable. Those caps have nearly 30 years on them and they were junk to begin with. I was reminded that I did some of Moray’s mods with the dynamat on the baskets and horns, a bit of poly fil and I used new gasket material on all speakers and passive. I had no idea those quicksilvers had that type of power. I actually had an amp with kt88 tubes at 60 watts a channel, crazy thing is I considered it bright with my chorus ii which have the same squakers and tweets as the forte ii. Enjoyed an el34 amp BUT love my el84 amps, low power warm and sweet. 

 

Mark

you can re tune your Chorus ll lower by adding some dead weight to your passives start with a couple of ounces and if you like work up to 2.5 ounces but no more and I would rotate your woofers and passives when you re install them. you will pick up another 3-4 Hz of useful bass does not sound like a lot but you will be impressed with the added weight and authority it brings. Easy to add just as easy to remove if you don't like or just want to sell stock again at some point later.

[ricktate]

 I agree with Moray , I had forgot about those grill holes even after I did them on my sons Fortes. There could be bad connections inside there also causing sound problems. I forget how the mid driver is fixed to the horn but if its screw on and has a gasket ...best check that also. 

[mr clean]

On 12/11/2018 at 8:22 AM, aljordan said:

Hi,

 

I've owned a pair of KG-4 with rebuilt crossovers and titanium tweeter diaphragm, which while not perfect, are very satisfying overall. I recently picked up a pair of Forte II in great shape. They are quite a bit more open sounding than the KG-4, but I am struggling with getting a proper tonal balance. I've tried a number of positions in the room, with varying degrees of tow-in angle. The issue seems to be that when I tow them in direct at the listening position, the treble is smooth, but the balance is far too bright. When I angle them differently to get a better tonal balance, there is a region in the upper mids or lower treble that gets annoyingly edgy (saxophones for example, and certain upper notes on the piano). I am wondering if anyone else has had this issue with their Forte II, and what you might have done to solve it.

 

Will replacement titanium tweeter diaphragms relieve the sizzle? Replacement crossovers? I definitely don't need any more treble out of them, but would like to relieve the annoying region (without using an EQ device if possible).

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Buy a schiit loki 4 band eq. My rp280f speakers had too much on the treble and mid side of things for my crappy room. Thought I could not live with these bright sounding speakers.Headach and fatigue were killer. Enter Schiit Loki.  Pulled 8000 and 2000hz range back abit and added a fuzz on bottom and they sound perfect to my crusty old 55 year old 👂s! Listening to Deep Purple at the moment with a big cup of joe and the dog on my lap. Perfect start to the day.

[mr clean]

Also if you dont like the loki I will buy it from you! Want another anyway😎

[Dave A]

17 hours ago, jason str said:

Internet diagnosis is only a crapshoot i hate to say.

True but with capacitance how many have an accurate meter to check these with? It took a while before I could find a good used B&K 885 and even then it still ended up costing a hair over $400.  However having that meter with the last few dozen sets of speakers I have gone though did tell me a few things. 1, all those old vintage crossovers were out of spec due to capacitance. I check the old capacitors now for the heck of it to see how bad they are and have yet to have a set where both are OK. I order the capacitors when I get the speakers back home.

  I guess maybe loose drivers could contribute but I also check the mids and tweeters to make sure those magnets are not loose before I do any serious playing and have ohmed and frequency swept them to.

  Tweeters are the main offender for shrill based on what has come through here and what was physically changed to make shrill go away.   EQ has also worked when everything tests OK.

[geoff.]

Regarding the anti-EQ philosophy...

 

unless I have the EXACT same studio monitors, all ancillary equipment (amps, pre-amps, MIXERS - which have EQ..., recording devices and media), not to mention cables (!), I cannot expect to hear the music as recorded WITHOUT EQ

 

oh, and I need an acoustically perfect room too...

[mr clean]

34 minutes ago, geoff. said:

Regarding the anti-EQ philosophy...

 

unless I have the EXACT same studio monitors, all ancillary equipment (amps, pre-amps, MIXERS - which have EQ..., recording devices and media), not to mention cables (!), I cannot expect to hear the music as recorded WITHOUT EQ

 

oh, and I need an acoustically perfect room too...

Smartest thing ive heard all day!  

[Deang]

17 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

The half power point is probably not changing, but the overall output might be. Replacing them will probably only increase the output at the higher frequencies. That will not tame  "harshness". Besides, slightly changing the half power point on a first order filter (I assume that is what it is) will not make much of a difference. IMHO, there is an over emphasis on choice of capacitors amongst many around here. 

 

2nd order, 1st order, 3rd order. 

 

True, output is slightly elevated, but it sounds cleaner and more open. The old Mylars are going resistive, and need to be replaced. They also impart a gritty quality - pretty noticeable when it goes away. 

 

As for capacitor choice, sure, you don’t have to spend a lot - but the values are so small, even going film and foil isn’t going to cost all that much.

 

I’ve only heard vintage Klipsch stuff sound “shrill” when pushed to ear bleed levels. 

 

I’ve heard Forte II’s several times. They always sounded really nice to me.

 

I don’t have any experience with driver changeouts with these speakers, but it does seem unlikely that some of the recommended solutions could be implemented without modifications to the filter. 

 

As for the resistors; a pair of Mills will run $8. Peanuts! Since I suffer from audionervosa, I don’t want to hit the chair wondering if I should have replaced the stock sandcasts. 

[oldtimer]

10 minutes ago, Deang said:

I don’t want to hit the chair wondering if I should have replaced the stock sancasts. 

Clearly you should have...