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Converting a Hi-Fi Stereo Setup into a Hi-Fi Multichannel Setup


Chris A

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If you're here, you obviously have some interest in being able to extend or start from scratch to play multichannel recordings on your primarily hi-fi setup.  There is a lot to share on this subject I believe, "share" being the key word.  But try to keep your entries brief and to the point (and I'll try to do that, too). No "audiophile crusades" here, please. 

 

First the caveats and guidelines. This isn't a Klipsch Reference, Klipsch THX Ultra, or other home theater thread.  So no further discussion of these topics is encouraged on those subjects--except in terms of comparisons as they may occur to focus on the differences between a HT setup and perhaps how hi-fi multichannel setups might also function as home theater systems.  [If you presently own primarily home theater and bookshelf loudspeakers and electronics that are primary geared toward canned audio and video reproduction solutions from Klipsch or other manufacturers (and are content staying in that realm), this is really not the place to discuss those.]  There are plenty of other threads in the Home Theater forum for those discussions.

 

What this thread is:

 

1) It's about extending your very high quality stereo setup, mainly used for listening to music into a setup so that it can also play high fidelity (hi-fi) multichannel music recordings.  [If it does that well, it will also be a knock-your-socks-off HT setup with the addition of a suitable flat screen or projector video system.  But first and foremost, its focus is on hi-fi audio listening.]

 

2) It's about assessing where you are now, your multichannel goal(s), and how to get there within reasonable budgetary and available personal time constraints over time. 

 

3) It's about practical assessments of sound quality of multichannel audio components and room acoustics--their suitability to hi-fi multichannel...and not so much "the party line" of audiophilia.  In other words, if you're a analog-only person, this probably isn't your thread in most likelihood.  If you're a tube-only person, or one that currently plays only phonograph records on multi-thousand dollar turntables/cartridges and is basically happy only having that, this probably isn't your thread either (for reasons of affordability, reliability, and maintainability of a multichannel system).  It's okay.  You'll survive not posting your opposing viewpoints here to those who choose to come here wanting to discuss this particular subject--without having to defend themselves. 

 

4) And it's foremost about talking about our experiences (subject to the constraints above), put into context so that others may benefit that are going down this path.

 

If you agree with the above, we're good to go.  If you disagree, well then--please start another thread and discuss that subject there.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I think there are a few areas that we need to talk about for sure:

 

a) listening room suitability for multichannel music reproduction

b) where you're at in terms of present stereo or less-than 5.1 setup (multichannel music discs are all 5.1 or 5.0--and none are 7.1 or Atmos, etc.).

c) looking closely at your loudspeakers and acoustic room treatments, and how those might differ from stereo-only rooms.

d) then looking at the electronics (multichannel-capable music sources, preamps, crossovers, amplifiers, signal conditioners).

e) putting it all together, ensuring that it's doing what it's supposed to (including measurements), and systematically upgrading as you go along,

f) avoiding expenditures that dilute attaining your multichannel goals--at least until those multichannel goals are first met in order achieve a superior multichannel system

 

Chris

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I put placeholder here so to keep the most basic stuff together with the opening of the thread--for newcomers reading this for the first time.  I'll try to break the above 6 points labeled "a-f" into two groups of three for this and the next post.

 

a) listening room suitability for multichannel music reproduction

 

This is the most basic requirement, but usually the most difficult to change things if something isn't quite right.  Books have been written on the subject, so we'll keep the discussion at the more basic level in this post, but feel free to ask more detailed questions below in the thread.

 

First, you've got to have a place for all five (i.e., we're focusing on 5.1 arrays, with multiple subwoofers, since that is the only multichannel hi-fi format that I've found thus far) surround channels, and good place(s) to put the subwoofer(s).  We'll take these channel positions in order of problems usually encountered.

 

So if you're already running stereo in your listening room (and you may not currently have a listening room), and you are like a lot of HT folks, the center loudspeaker is usually the most problematic placement. For HT folks, they usually grapple with large flat screens or projector screens to shoot through with at least the center loudspeaker.  In multichannel hi-fi, we want the system to be able to be played audio-only without a video screen, so shooting through a screen has to be an "added mode" to the settings of the loudspeaker channels.  (More on this subject to come later.) 

 

The next problem in most setups I find to be the placement of the surrounds.  For a 5.1 array, these actually need to be no more than 90 degrees to the listeners facing the front wall (and this is controversial, but nevertheless true).  You can even move the surrounds forward of the main listening position and actually increase the surround performance of the array.  More on why this is true later.  This should open up possibilities for surround placement that you probably haven't really considered.  I run my surrounds slightly forward of the 90 degree mark, but if I could move them a little farther forward, their performance could actually be a little better.

 

The last issue is usually the subwoofer(s).  It turns out that if you have an issue finding a room corner for one or more subs, then buy more subs and place one close to a corner, another along the front mid-wall next to the center loudspeaker (if you can), and another (if you can afford it and the subs aren't huge) somewhere behind the listeners--anywhere that you can put it, but along a wall is usually best.

 

If you're having issues with the above, then we can talk about them below. 

 

The last thing is the placement of the front left-right loudspeakers.  If you're currently running your fronts away from the walls and you're also most interested in turning your stereo setup into a HT, then you can move the fronts to just outside of the flat panel or projector screen in order to synchronize the apparent positions of the sounds just off-screen corresponding to the edges of the screen.  If, however, your intent is to retain the highest sound quality, then placement of the fronts will be for this, and you get what you get for the off-screen sound locations (this latter choice is the way that I run my setup).  [Enough for now on HT screens and multichannel hi-fi setups--since this is usually secondary in importance.]

 

Since all hi-fi surround music is in 5.1 format, (I'm not currently aware of any Atmos discs for music-only), then elevation loudspeakers are not really required for a hi-fi multichannel setup. If you want to talk about those, feel free to do so below.

 

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Excellent framing of the topic Chris.  Since your “interest” link is to my recent thread it follows that I’m very interested in this subject in fact I’ve been following the trail you and others have blazed with superb multichannel my goal.

One area where I can’t simply duplicate what you’ve done is my room so I’m glad you listed suitability of the room.  Our rooms are quite different in part because my L+R are much further apart and my LP up against the “back” wall.  Is it even possible to get excellent multichannel in my living room?  What are the inherent difficulties you’ve overcome or minimized in your room setup?

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    Definitely interested in this topic.  Though I am mostly focused on 2-channel, I do have a pair of Heresies running surround duties in a 4.1 setup with a phantom center.  I mostly use 2-channel for music and the full surround setup for movies.  To be honest, I haven't really tried any multi-channel music with it, but I would be very interested in checking it out.

    I wonder if the severe mismatch in capability between my fronts (DSP EQ'ed and Multi-amped) and rears (stock Heresies powered by the receiver) would create an issue?  For movies, it is fine, since the surround sound channels are mostly used for ambient sounds or the occasional car or jet streaking from back to front.  It seems like for critical listening, the mismatch might be more noticeable?

   Any recommendations on some multichannel material to try out?  I am mostly a rock and roll guy, but I like just about everything.

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20 hours ago, Chris A said:

I think there are a few areas that we need to talk about for sure:

 

a) listening room suitability for multichannel music reproduction

b) where you're at in terms of present stereo or less-than 5.1 setup (multichannel music discs are all 5.1 or 5.0--and none are 7.1 or Atmos, etc.).

c) looking closely at your loudspeakers and acoustic room treatments, and how those might differ from stereo-only rooms.

d) then looking at the electronics (multichannel-capable music sources, preamps, crossovers, amplifiers, signal conditioners).

e) putting it all together, ensuring that it's doing what it's supposed to (including measurements), and systematically upgrading as you go along,

f) avoiding expenditures that dilute attaining your multichannel goals--at least until those multichannel goals are first met in order achieve a superior multichannel system

 

 

I'm currently running a prototype version of FOURFRONT in my 4.2 system. There isn't much information about it at the Website, but FOURFRONT is a stereo upmix technique. The basic algorithm is capable of upmixing to 9 fully discrete channels (plus another 4 channels for encoded Dolby Surround material), but once beyond 5 channels there's just not enough audio content to go around.

a) My listening room is far from ideal. Its weird shape forces me to place the front speakers at about ±20° and the surrounds at ±90°. This works extremely well for motion picture soundtracks, but really doesn't work for music. I find that for music the surrounds need to be either less than ±90° or more than ±90°, but not exactly ±90°.

b) As I mentioned, my system is 4.2. Actually it's 5.2, but I split the center channel between the two front speakers. You would not believe the rat's nest of interconnects at the back of my stereo cabinet.

c) I have found that it is imperative that all of the loudspeakers "voice" similarly. If not, then it becomes very apparent "which" speaker is making "which" sound.

d) I run the stereo feed into a Steinberg UR824 multichannel ADC/DAC, which ships the audio over USB to a Windows computer that does all of the upmix, crossover, and EQ processing and then sends it back to the '824.

e) I'm still putting the system together, so no measurements, yet. It's really frustrating trying to get everything right.

f) Biggest expenditure so far was replacing my original 7-channel amp (front speakers are biamped, surrounds are full-range, so six channels) with something that sounds better. That's turning out to be a much bigger problem for multichannel than it was for stereo -- if your electronics don't sound good, then the problem gets multiplied by 4 or 5 or 7 or 9 instead of just by 2.

 

- Greg

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1 hour ago, Tarheel TJ said:

Any recommendations on some multichannel material to try out?  I am mostly a rock and roll guy, but I like just about everything.

 

Pink Floyd has SACD multichannel versions of Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here that I own.  These are really good. 

 

Additionally, I own the early Elton John albums (Elton John, Madman Across the Water, Tumbleweed Connection, Honky Chateau, and Goodbye Yellow Brick Road) on multichannel SACD.  These are a little loud, but still well worth the money.  Elton John orchestrated his albums surprisingly well, so you get really nice surround sound voices/instruments is each channel--orchestrated even nicer than the Pink Floyd multichannel SACDs.

 

Eric Clapton's Slowhand in multichannel SACD is almost iconic in its stature within the multichannel rock genre.  It's a great album in multichannel.

 

Perhaps the most impressive one is Hell Freezes Over (DTS multichannel version) by the Eagles.  The last track (Seven Bridges Road) is a real treat--a capella voices in each channel when the Eagles were in their vocal prime in the early 1980s.

 

There are many others, but I list only the ones that I own.  There are many rock concerts on Blu-Ray and DVD in multichannel, (especially Joe Bonamassa--who has perhaps 15 BDs and DVDs--out of which I own 6 of them, including all five of his London tour from 3-4 years ago).  These are outstanding--but really require some sort of video capability to see interactive menus and to see the bands while they're playing.  I really, really enjoy these concerts since the fidelity and clarity of the recordings are second to none/really outstanding and the volume control is fully in your hands (...if you catch my drift: I don't like it loud enough to cause my hearing defenses to kick in--like you get at the live concerts in person). 

 

You can find all of these non-video discs for sale from the Discogs marketplace and all of them (including video discs) on Amazon marketplace.  Since my musical tastes run a bit more toward classical and jazz (I own perhaps a 200-300 multichannel discs in these genres), I haven't spent as much time collecting rock multichannel discs, but I plan to continue acquiring them slowly.  Watch the prices on Discogs, as some collectors really believe that they're cornered the market.  Just wait a few months, and the prices usually change a great deal.  Supply and demand seems to work there.

 

Chris

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My system is a mostly heritage 5.2.4 configuration and currently used for 90% multichannel HiFi and 10% HT.

Mostly because I don't have time to watch a lot of movies.

But as stated above my system does HT very well.

I do not listen to any 2 channel music.

My source material is all Blu-Ray concert disc and I have approx 50 of them currently. So I would like to use this thread to discuss source materials as well.

My room acoustics have no modifications and I feel this is my next best place to start to improve my sound quality. I also have no idea what or where to start.

I also need to get another center channel speaker as that is my wink link at the moment.

 

I have been very unimpressed with the mix quality of every Blu-Ray disc it seems and listen mostly in multichannel stereo with all speakers playing full content.

I do not use the overhead speakers for music.

I prefer DTS HD Master over Dolby True HD decoding.

 

My system:

Denon X4300H utilizing Audyssey Multeq 32

Sony UHPH1 Blu-Ray

Toshiba HD-DVD player

Left Front- Klipshorn

Center- Heresy

Right Front- Klipschorn

Left Rear - Belle

Right Rear- Belle

Front L&R Overhead- RB6 ii

Rear L&R Overhead- (embarrassed to say and soon to be replaced)

Subs- SVS PC13 Ultra and SVS PC12 NSD

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Davis said:

My system is a mostly heritage 5.2.4 configuration and currently used for 90% multichannel HiFi and 10% HT.

Mostly because I don't have time to watch a lot of movies.

But as stated above my system does HT very well.

I do not listen to any 2 channel music.

My source material is all Blu-Ray concert disc and I have approx 50 of them currently. So I would like to use this thread to discuss source materials as well.

My room acoustics have no modifications and I feel this is my next best place to start to improve my sound quality. I also have no idea what or where to start.

I also need to get another center channel speaker as that is my wink link at the moment.

 

I have been very unimpressed with the mix quality of every Blu-Ray disc it seems and listen mostly in multichannel stereo with all speakers playing full content.

This is what I figured was happening out there in several listening rooms.  I'm impressed that you are out there already, and it's not just me...:biggrin2:.

 

Perhaps this thread should highlight in particular horn-loaded bass systems for at least the front left/right channels, i.e., Khorns, La Scalas, Belles, and pro gear such as Jubilees, and MWM-based front left/right channels, and perhaps other horn-loaded bass.  These are loudspeakers that are peculiar to this forum and I find that yields the most outstanding sound that I've ever experienced--which just so happens to be surround sound in typical 5.1 format.  Don't worry, we'll also discuss direct-radiating woofer-based systems, but I think the horn-loaded fronts are the most difficult to do, but yield the most outstanding results.

 

Note that the comment about not liking the surround format--I find is wrapped up with getting the system calibrated well and getting the harsh-sounding drivers replaced with better ones (if they exist in the setup).  More on this subject to come.

 

Chris

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3 hours ago, Tarheel TJ said:

...Any recommendations on some multichannel material to try out?  I am mostly a rock and roll guy, but I like just about everything.

The prolific Steven Wilson primary creative force behind Porcupine Tree has mixed his own considerable body of prog rock work and classic albums of Yes, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, XTC and others into excellent multichannel DVD-A and Blu-rays.

 

By way of correction Hell Freezes Over was made and released in 1994.

(My bad...the song Seven Bridges Road is in fact from the earlier live album from 1980)

 

We’re starting to see some surround titles with Atmos such as the excellent Hans Zimmer Live in Prague and the anniversary reissue of INXS - Kick 

 

My resource for multichannel info is quadraphonicquad.com

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1392742715_LivingRoomLayoutPaint.jpg.c782fdfd8630ee9a1d9dd5fbe2f7bead.jpgHow

 

How about using my room/system as an example 😀.  I know it's not ideal with the money seat up against the "back" wall but I've had some good sounds starting with some Michael Green "60s" up around ear level on cinder blocks for surrounds and a big ole THTLP sub standing up in the right rear corner.  Mains are by far the best I've ever had with the K402/TAD 4002/ Khorn bass combo.

 

 

 

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This is a very interesting topic to me. Could you elaborate more on the placement of the surround channels. Do to my room shape my cornwalls are in front of my ear a bit. I feel that was a bad thing for movies. After adding forte2’s to the system as surround backs I feel much more immersive and well rounded sound. I haven’t mess with any multichannel recorded material because I feel like all the speakers in the room that aren’t Jubilees just muddy up the sweet sound. 

 

Id like to talk more about timbre matched HF sections. Obviously everything I have in the room is inferior to the k402. I have dreams converting my cornwalls to 2 way using k510s ideally. But due to their availability that is unlikely to happen. I might have to seek out a cheaper solution. For sure I will have a k510/belle as a center channel as it meets my size requirements. 

 

I believe I need potentially a lot more acoustic damping for my 2ch. How would multi channel differ? At what point do I regret that I didn’t just build a padded room from the start? 

 

Id also like to discuss having some channels with ultra low distortion horn bass bins (jubes) vs direct radiating bass (cornwalls). 

 

And lastly one thing I feel that has been missing from my setup is ultra low freq. I know it’s intermodulation blasphemy, but I’d like to add a couple SI 24” drivers to a sealed cabinet in the back of the room. My plan was to only have them on for movies to capture more authoritative LFE, but now with this discussion we might as well talk about multichannel hifi. 

 

Currently i enjoy 2.1 listening the best because I feel the heresy, cornwalls, fortes, and potential direct radiating subs only degrade my awesome low distortion stereo system. Of course I’d have 7 jubes in there if money and space allowed, but I’m short on both. 

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We watch about 2 Blu-ray movies per week (occasionally 3 or 4) and I listen to either 2 channel or 5.0 or 5.1 channel music every day (ah, retirement!), all through the same system, L & R Klipschorns (stock, AK4 upgrade).  The center is a modified Belle Klipsch (top hat rebuilt, with a K401 replacing the Belle mid-horn, with the new top hat deep enough to accommodate it, while the whole enclosure, bin and top, is the height of the Khorns (tweeters equal height).  The whole thing is buried in the wall, in a bump out protruding through the wall, into the other side.  The Belle is thus flush mounted, and an equal distance from the Main Listening Position as the two Khorns (within 0.1 feet, according to Audyssey's distance (time) measurement.  There is no grille cloth on the front of the Belle, but that whole wall is covered with an "acoustically transparent" (I know that's like "clean coal") wall fabric.  Audyssey makes the treble response as flat as that of the Khorns.  Nothing is between the Khorns, except a wall mounted African bowl above the Belle.  The Belle sits on a strong shelf inside the bump out.  The sub (Klipsch RSW 15) is tucked under that shelf, and is also behind the fabric Surrounds are Heresy IIs.  They are slightly behind the listeners (more about that later). 

 

Center channel and sub hidden behind wall fabric.  Other two thirds of wall solid, but fabric covered.  AT projection screen (Seymour), when down, makes apparently no audible difference in sound (it is one Roy tested for another forum member, and found, IIRC, 1.5 dB loss at the high end.  We flipped a coin and decided to run Audyssey with the screen down.  The room is usually under more subdued lighting than with this flash.

DSCN1827.thumb.JPG.99a99d39b78af54b8d2984c6afb1ff5d.JPG

 

Side wall

DSCN1835.thumb.JPG.a29fbfa4c89356799c6c181ff2cbab09.JPG

 

I haven't had the energy to start de-mastering yet.  Most of my classical SACD multichannel sound fine, as do the jazz disks.  I have a few other multi, including Dark Side of the Moon, which, as Chris A. said, is outstanding.  A friend convinced me to try Dolby PL II on two channel sources.  I resisted, but it turned out to be an improvement on some 2 channel disks, but a good number of our CDs need de-mastering -- or something.

 

With the surrounds behind us, and as far as possible to the side, with some recordings (several movies, Dark Side of the Moon, the BSO/Levine recording of the Brahms Requiem, some Concord jazz SACDs, etc., the side walls come alive, with 6 or more loci.  Others suck.  

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6 hours ago, AHall said:

This is a very interesting topic to me. Could you elaborate more on the placement of the surround channels. Do to my room shape my cornwalls are in front of my ear a bit. I feel that was a bad thing for movies. After adding forte2’s to the system as surround backs I feel much more immersive and well rounded sound.

 

For this topic I really recommend that you take a look at Figure 15.9 of Toole's book. ("The shorter the vertical bars, the better the reconstruction of the original sound field."). Do a Google search for "floyd toole sound reproduction pdf" and you'll find the whole thing online. I have found that my own subjective impressions match the results presented there rather well.

 

Quote

Id like to talk more about timbre matched HF sections. Obviously everything I have in the room is inferior to the k402.

 

I think that you're confusing timbre with sound quality. For example, in my case my mains are Legacy Focus but my surrounds are an ancient set of DCM QEDs. The QEDs don't have anywhere near the frequency extension or dynamics of the Focus, but their timbre is almost identical so they make a good match. So the important thing is the character of the reproduced sound, much more than its extension, polar response, etc.

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Here is figure 15.9 from Toole's 2nd Ed:

 

1848785613_Toolefigure15.9surroundconfigurationperf.thumb.JPG.d8d5bfcb7aa34d8435757a0cf04981b0.JPG

 

I actually like the following figure from Toole a lot more because there are fewer things to explain, and the farther down the relative values, the lesser the performance (which is more intuitive for many people):

 

Figure 15-5.GIF

 

Chris

 

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By the way, the above two figures are really the punchline for the answer to the question, "why multichannel over stereo?".  They tell you what's missing when one ignores well-placed 4 or 5 channel surround configurations in favor of stereo only.

 

Note that the much older "quad" configuration (configuration "f" in the above figures) actually has little to offer over stereo, but something like configuration "b" or "i" (the ITU 5.1 layout) performs much better--just by shifting the location of the surround loudspeakers.  Also note that putting one surround loudspeaker directly behind the listener's head (configuration "g") performs a little worse than standard stereo only.

 

I think it pays to focus attention on the in-room placement of loudspeakers--and on moving them around to hear the differences between some of these configurations over an extended listening trial with many different music selections.

 

Chris

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With my surrounds being 1ft forward of my ears and 6ft from either side should the speaker be tilted rearward toward the listening position or 90* to the room? According to the diagram it looks like they should pointed towards you. I didn’t know if off axis or dispersion pattern adds complexity to this or not. It would be good to hear their current placement could actually be a good thing. I’d have had them back further if the shape of the room didn’t dictate their position. And I’d much rather my couch was another foot or so back to be further from the jubes, but leave it where it is due to the placement of the surrounds. J2BI0zP.jpgEAq9SHs.jpgVWVI22k.jpg

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