Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[jason str]

29 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Yes, well I have no more need for my speakers to hold up to frequent handling, and possible dropping, than my components.  ..I've had 10 pairs of speakers over the years, all made of MDF, and NONE was ever dropped on a corner.  ..So not sure what advantages plywood construction would have accrued to me or pretty much anyone I know,

 

 

Exactly, you have never dropped anything (so you say) therefore have no experience in the matter.

 

You probably never built anything either to know the difference.

 

Unfortunately can't help anybody not willing to learn.

 

 

[Tizman]

I am pretty careful with my speakers, but I have bought probably two dozen pairs of used speakers over the years.  Pretty much all of the ones made of MDF have been damaged somehow, usually on the corners, or suffered from high moisture environments with some degree of swelling.  The plywood ones have stood up much better.  MDF is always a small incident away from looking like crap.  Also, should damage occur, repair becomes much more difficult than with plywood.  Try fixing a damaged corner on an MDF cabinet.  Cabinet repairs are no fun in general.  MDF cabinet repairs are a nightmare.  Pro gear uses plywood because it is much more durable than MDF.  Much, much more.  It is also lighter so that when accidents happen, the speaker cabinet’s own weight doesn’t contribute as much to the damage.  

 

For DIY, where you are cutting panels yourself at home, MDF is a toxic dust nightmare.  The La Scala II is made of 1” MDF. Even though I would love a pair, for me the MDF, and their cost, are the only two reasons not to buy them.  

 

My 1976 La Scalas are in excellent condition.  What would they look like now had they been made of MDF back in ‘76?  I am the third owner of my pair of La Scalas.  Another interesting “what if” is what would they look like now if they were made of MDF and then were used as PA speakers by a bunch of different bands since 1976?  I can reasonably expect my future grandchildren to still be using my pair of La Scalas in 2076.  Part of the reason so many vintage Klipsch speakers are still in use today and will be in the future is their solid plywood construction.  If a manufacturer wants their speakers more solid/rigid, they should make them out of thicker plywood or some other durable material.  MDF is disposable garbage.

[ODS123]

18 minutes ago, Tizman said:

 Another interesting “what if” is what would they look like now if they were made of MDF and then were used as PA speakers by a bunch of different bands since 1976?  

 

No worries then as I have no plans on using my Cornwalls as PA speakers; a purpose for which they were never intended. 

 

[Tizman]

The issue is always what isn’t intended.  Here are a few examples; a small flooding of your listening area; crappy movers; a lamp falling over; kids and pets;  high humidity.  Get the picture?  Perhaps you live in a perfect world, so your advice is only applicable to other people who live in a perfect world.  In the real world, s**t happens.  

[jason str]

21 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

No worries then as I have no plans on using my Cornwalls as PA speakers; a purpose for which they were never intended. 

 

 

Klipsch made pro sound Cornwalls.

[Tizman]

Pro sound Cornwalls?  Cool.  I liked the sets of Cornwalls I have heard over the years, but always missed the bass horn of La Scalas.  It's so hard to go back to direct radiators once you have lived with an all horn speaker system.   

[ODS123]

2 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

Klipsch made pro sound Cornwalls.

 

Again,  insisting on plywood construction is insisting on a solution in search of a problem.

 

Over the the last 30 years I have had Polk Audio 5jrs, Spica TC-50's, PSB Alpha A/V's, PSB Stratus Minis, Vandersteen 3A Sigs, Paradigm S8 v2's, and now Klipsch Cornwall iii's.  All made from MDF and all dent and water-damage free.  I treat my speakers like I do my electronic components.  ..Keep them well away from water and avoid dropping them.

 

If I should ever chose speakers that are apt to be boxed and hauled by roadies, I may change my opinion.  ..But for now, I think MDF is a better choice for home speaker construction. 

[jason str]

CP-1 Pro Cornwall.pdf

[Tizman]

ODS123:  All the speakers you have owned in the past have used direct radiators and have had low sensitivity, especially in comparison to the Klipsch Heritage models.  The requirement for high sensitivity for the early Klipsch speakers is partially due to the low power amplifiers that were common in home use back then.  PA speakers normally require high sensitivity, albeit for different reasons, and the need for this sensitivity hasn't changed much over the past 60 years or so.  This common requirement for high sensitivity meant that PWK designed for it, and it was a priority for him. The end result is that many PWK designed speakers are appropriate for both home and PA use.  Your Cornwalls would sound great with a low power SET amp.  The Mac that you are using now is a great amp, but is extreme overkill for the Cornwalls with their 102 DB/W/M sensitivity.  It was, however, appropriate for the low sensitivity DR speakers that you were using in the past.  With the Mac, you had a fighting chance of getting the dynamics and volume that a Cornwall will produce with a small fraction of the 200 Watts per channel of the Mac. You are probably using no more than 4 of the 200 Watts that your Mac is capable of with the Cornwalls.  4 Watts into a Cornwall is 108 DB/W/M.  Your Mac would have had to put out 256 Watts into your 84 DB/W/M Spica TC-50 to match the Cornwall's 108 DB/W/M with 4 Watts.  This is of course not possible because of the Spica's 50 Watt continuous rating.  What it means is that when you were using the Spica's you were limited to around 101 DB/W/M.  That is the result of designing speakers for low wattage amps and PA use, which are complimentary design goals.  Have you ever actually tried a quality SET amp with your Cornwalls?  None of the speakers that you have owned in the past, while excellent in their category, were appropriate for low wattage SET amps.  Now is the time to try one if you haven't.

[Dave A]

MDF is a better product because you like it not that you have ever built anything with it nor understand the structural deficiencies it has. Stiff and brittle subject to failure with shock or minor water exposure and because penny pinching people build expensive speakers from it you think that validates it. So I see your same old if they were constantly moved arguments surface again. Please observe the attached pictures for home use never exposed to the potential for damage superior MDF because everyone is doing it speakers. Dropped one time. Any questions? Superiority of material comments?

[Dave A]

2 hours ago, jason str said:

Unfortunately can't help anybody not willing to learn.

Yes.

[ODS123]

34 minutes ago, Tizman said:

  Have you ever actually tried a quality SET amp with your Cornwalls?

 

Thanks but I'm not particularly interested in SET amps.  

 

Though I don't believe that differences b/w modern day amps that are engineered to be linear are audible (which is to say pretty much ALL amps) I still have my reasons for buying the McIntosh.  And yes, it's overkill for the CW's, but it wasn't for the Paradigm Signature S8 v2.s that I owned when I purchased it.  My reasons:

• I've wanted one since I was a kid;
• I love the look, the feel, and tactile enjoyment of Mac gear;
• Input matching.  ..I hate the huge volume swings when switching from one source to another (e.g, music server to TV);
• I absolutely insist on having tone controls.  I'd rather adjust a songs tonal balance than never listen to it b/c it's overly bright, etc..  Golden ear audiophiles position on Tone controls (ie., they should be avoided) is, IMHO, absolutely ridiculous.  I won't own an amp w/out again.
• I absolutely insist on ability to switch to Mono.  So many early stereo recordings (eg., early Beatles) have very gimmicky stereo effects;
• I like the wattage meters.  Though not important with the CW III's, with my Paradigms it was reassuring to know I wasn't nearing their input limits
• The MA6600 is dead silent.  Even with the 103 db efficient CW's I don't hear ANY hiss b/w songs or with the source paused.
• I often need to listen at quiet levels.  Unlike the Bryston and Peach tree amps I owned before it, my MA6600 keeps each channel in perfect balance all the way to full attenuation.
• I love the tactile feel of operating it (did I mention that? ..oops I think I did  ).

I wouldn't object to owning a Mac Tube amp but they are so linear that I don't think I or anyone here could reliably distinguish it from my S/S integrated.  ..So why bother changing.

 

 

 

[Deang]

... and does not hold screws for shit. 

 

I had some MDF boards over here for crossover builds, I ended up pitching them. Absolutely worthless. 

[Deang]

So far, ODS has quite the resume. Who can possibly compete with such a wealth of knowledge?

[ODS123]

1 minute ago, Deang said:

... and does not hold screws for shit. 

 

I had some MDF boards over here for crossover builds, I ended up pitching them. Absolutely worthless. 

 

Yet Klipsch uses MDF for the motorboards - which is where the important screws are utilized -  of their Pro speakers, so go figure.  ..So why haven't ANY of my aforementioned previous speakers fallen apart??  ..30 years, 10 different brands, and 0 self-destructions.  ..why I wonder?  

[Dave A]

1 minute ago, Deang said:

and does not hold screws for shit. 

 

You got that right. I have to deal with stripped out holes all the time in that junk.

 

4 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Thanks but I'm not particularly interested in SET amps

He can't hear you unless you agree with him.

[Dave A]

2 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Yet Klipsch uses MDF for the motorboards - which is where the important screws are utilized -  of their Pro speakers, so go figure.  ..So why haven't ANY of my aforementioned previous speakers fallen apart??  ..30 years, 10 different brands, and 0 self-destructions.  ..why I wonder?

🤣

[Deang]

6 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Yet Klipsch uses MDF for the motorboards - which is where the important screws are utilized -  of their Pro speakers, so go figure.  ..So why haven't ANY of my aforementioned previous speakers fallen apart??  ..30 years, 10 different brands, and 0 self-destructions.  ..why I wonder?  

 

Which speakers use MDF for the motorboards? If they do, they’re using T-nuts. 

[ODS123]

11 minutes ago, Dave A said:

MDF is a better product because you like it not that you have ever built anything with it nor understand the structural deficiencies it has. Stiff and brittle subject to failure with shock or minor water exposure and because penny pinching people build expensive speakers from it you think that validates it. So I see your same old if they were constantly moved arguments surface again. Please observe the attached pictures for home use never exposed to the potential for damage superior MDF because everyone is doing it speakers. Dropped one time. Any questions? Superiority of material comments?

 

Those pictures are absurd.  ..Do you buy your cd players, amps, and A/V processors on the basis of which can best take a punch   As I said, I've had many many speakers over the years and NONE have sustained that kind of damage.  Speakers that aren't being boxed and handled by roadies on a nightly basis don't need to be build with plywood.  ..Most speakers are just fine /w MDF.  ..Just as used by all the best speaker companies in the world when building speakers for home use.

[jimjimbo]

So far, ODS has quite the resume. Who can possibly compete with such a wealth of knowledge?

So tempting....