Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[Dave A]

On 12/25/2018 at 1:57 PM, ODS123 said:

That had already been mentioned in the thread - it was not in dispute.  My recollection is that someone (Dave A perhaps?) was insisting that Heritage speakers were inferior to Pro Series  b/c they are made of MDF.  I pointed out that Heritage and Pro, and their respective cabinet constructions, were for different purposes.  MDF used in Heritage Series is better for sound (more inert) and finish, Plywood (used in Pro series) is better for commercial applications b/c it's more durable.   Anyway, i'd be happy to resume that discussion in the other thread if you'd like.

Dave if you go back and read the thread it was this OP's comment that introduced MDF into this thread so ask him why he did it. But you are right this is getting tedious.

[MEH Synergy]

We can settle it easily by saying if you love klipsch, you are in the right forum.   Everyone has different preferences.   To each his or her own.  There you go, done. What was this thread about again? 

[Wolfbane]

19 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

We can settle it easily by saying if you love klipsch, you are in the right forum.   Everyone has different preferences.   To each his or her own.  There you go, done. What was this thread about again? 

 

At the end of the day: buy the speakers, amp and source equipment (tube or SS) that is best for you. Trust your ears.

 

Wb

[Tizman]

ODS123:  Tone controls add FR distortion and mono switches add distortion as well.  Every circuit between the input and output adds distortion and noise, this is sometimes the case even when the circuit in question is not being used.  Interesting also that your Mac amp, unlike most modern SS amps, has output transformers like almost all tube amps do.  The evil output transformer!  How 1967!  Your fetish is with the Macintosh brand, not with the particulars of your model.  Your comparison between your amp and your watch is not applicable at all.  A better analogy would be strapping a grandfather clock on your wrist.  Oh well.  At least you are listening to some good speakers now.  Enjoy!

[Deang]

http://blog.szynalski.com/2009/07/should-we-care-about-abx-test-results/

[jimjimbo]

4 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said:

What was this thread about again? 

Toasters.

 

BTW, I prefer a 4 slicer to a 2 slicer, and, it must have a bagel setting.

[jason str]

For the record my responses were never to bash any brands in general, just responding to the nonsense and drivel in the thread.

 

 

[richieb]

2 minutes ago, jason str said:

For the record my responses were never to bash any brands in general, just responding to the nonsense and drivel in the thread.

 

 

 

=== following this thread afar, way far, I do believe you have just penned the next best thread topic to the ever popular CC&C thread —

“Nonsense And Drivel” . 

And may I begin -

— advice for audio enthusiasts - keep it to yourself 

[jason str]

3 minutes ago, richieb said:

 

=== following this thread afar, way far, I do believe you have just penned the next best thread topic to the ever popular CC&C thread —

“Nonsense And Drivel” . 

And may I begin -

— advice for audio enthusiasts - keep it to yourself 

 

Yes, not the place for audio discussion.

 

Nonsense and drivel would be a perfect thread topic in the forum. Who will start ?

[ODS123]

2 hours ago, Tizman said:

ODS123:  Tone controls add FR distortion and mono switches add distortion as well.  Every circuit between the input and output adds distortion and noise, this is sometimes the case even when the circuit in question is not being used.  Interesting also that your Mac amp, unlike most modern SS amps, has output transformers like almost all tube amps do.  The evil output transformer!  How 1967!  Your fetish is with the Macintosh brand, not with the particulars of your model.  Your comparison between your amp and your watch is not applicable at all.  A better analogy would be strapping a grandfather clock on your wrist.  Oh well.  At least you are listening to some good speakers now.  Enjoy!

 

First of all, if tone control and mono switch added distortion to my amp so what?  It's Total Harmnonic and Intermodulation Distortion are .005% at full rated power which is well below audibility, which is something like 1%.  Ditto for amp and pre-amp section noise, though I don't recall the spec.

 

Secondly, they don't.  And this is an important discussion I think for beginners to note.  Tizman's contention is based on golden ear audiophiles' claims that the EVERY signal break in the audio signal path adds audible distortion.  This is simply not true.  Yes, when utilized (ie., not zero'd) they add distortion, but when either set at zero or the tone control defeat switch is set, they do nothing to audibly affect the signal.  Case in point, take a look at a mixing board and you'll see hundreds and hundreds of signal breaks.  If each audibly affected the signal, the signal would be unrecognizable - there'd be nothing left to the recording.  Of course, this isn't so as evidence by the ocean of wonderful sounding songs that were mixed with a mixing board.  You can test this myth at home: cut one of your speaker wires into four pieces, then reconnect each piece of wire using a twist nut.  Using your balance control (another important feature I'd never go without) switch back and forth b/w left and right channel.  Hear a difference?  Of course not.  Those extra 4 signal breaks are inaudible and immeasurable.  Would be true if you added hundreds of such breaks.

 

Tone controls and mono switch are hugely helpful in improving some recordings.  I usually leave mine off but every once in a while they help to make an unlistenable song enjoyable.

 

Yes, when engaged Tone controls work by adding distortion.  But they can be left at zero when not needed.  Most tube amps, by comparison, ALWAYS add distortion, whether you want it or not for a given song.  It's interesting you'd criticize a feature that allows distortion for certain situations but are fine with an amp design that adds distortion always.

[MEH Synergy]

44 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Toasters.

 

BTW, I prefer a 4 slicer to a 2 slicer, and, it must have a bagel setting.

I like my bagels with eggs runny, bacon soggy and cream cheese.   I hear ya. 

[MEH Synergy]

"Nonsense and drivel would be a perfect thread topic in the forum. Who will start ?" 

 

Ahhhh yes, the current contender has spouted. 

[ODS123]

7 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

"Nonsense and drivel would be a perfect thread topic in the forum. Who will start ?" 

 

Ahhhh yes, the current contender has spouted. 

 

Do you mind?  Sarcasm is fine so long as you're adding SOMETHING audio-related to the discussion.  But comments such as this - and those recently from Jason and JimJimbo add precisely zero.  I doubt any beginners visiting this thread hoping to better understand the Objectivist and Subjectivist view of audio gear is finding your comments a good refection on the Subjectivist opinion or audiophiles in general.  Be snarky if you want, but be pertinent please.

[richieb]

14 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Do you mind?  Sarcasm is fine so long as you're adding SOMETHING audio-related to the discussion.  But comments such as this - and those recently from Jason and JimJimbo add precisely zero.  I doubt any beginners visiting this thread hoping to better understand the Objectivist and Subjectivist view of audio gear is finding your comments a good refection on the Subjectivist opinion or audiophiles in general.  Be snarky if you want, but be pertinent please.

 

=== as I said I follow most threads, some more than others, some from far away and the amazement of page after page of fruitless and argumentative “drivel”. What % of this thread do you actually think helped our “beginner” audio enthusiast? So yes I do mind. Without a way to quantify I’d guess 75% of this threads content had no more to add then did Jimbo and Jason’s comment. And mine — 

[jimjimbo]

30 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

I like my bagels with eggs runny, bacon soggy and cream cheese.   I hear ya. 

Dang, we could be related.....

[garyrc]

4 hours ago, Tizman said:

Tone controls add FR distortion and mono switches add distortion as well.  Every circuit between the input and output adds distortion and noise, this is sometimes the case even when the circuit in question is not being used.

 

Although I agree that extra circuitry would be expected to add distortion,

• I support Tone Controls because many recordings are neither flat nor well balanced -- few things are as bad sounding as very flat reproduction of an unbalanced recording -- and it is the complex sum of Recording + Player (inc. T Table/cart/arm as well as CD/SACD player) + Processing (if any) + Amplification + Speakers + Room + Treatments and room Contents + MLP that counts.  
• I support void free many layer plywood
• I support double blind ABX testing as well as long term, "let the music wash over you" evaluation.  Why not look at both?  It would be interesting to statistically analyze their degree of agreement.
• I support speakers as diverse as Klipsch, Bozak, JBL, and old sand filled Warfedale, as long as I also have Tone Controls.

☮️

 

[jimjimbo]

2 minutes ago, richieb said:

his threads content had no more to add then did Jimbo and Jason’s comment.

Always happy to contribute pertinent info.  You're welcome.

 

And, let's be brutally honest here, any semi-intelligent "beginner" would have dumped out of this thread when they started reading "your" truth and "your"  facts, aka your tedious bullshit.

 

The easiest way to lose readers here is to write as though you know more than others on this forum who have worked for Klipsch, owned Klipsch for decades, and have experimented with virtually every kind of amplifier, pre-amplifier and source imaginable, and then tell them they are wrong and you are right....  But hey, if you want to continue with that line, good luck with that.

[Tizman]

Looking for support from others for your own experiences, opinions and (sizeable) investments is human nature.  ODS123 has his, and I have mine.  When I put my opinions online, I do so as a reflection of my own actual real life experiences, and the preferences that have come about as a result of those experiences.  I wish I was wrong, and that all amps do in fact sound the same, DR speakers sound the same as horn speakers, etc.  That would be so much simpler and cheaper.  Picking an amp by choosing the one with the lowest THD figure is a recipe for disaster.  I ‘ve heard many amps that have vanishingly small THD figures and that sound like crap (that was pretty much most of the 1980s). This again is my experience.  ODS123 is not speaking from experience.  He has too much money invested in his Mac, and doesn’t want to try anything new based on hearing from others with different experiences.  He has said as much.  He wants to find things online and refer to them here to support his sizeable investment.  He wants to give advice that supports his choices, not from experience, but from a need to support these choices.  Don’t take his word for it, he hasn’t experienced it, and he doesn’t want to.  Don’t take my word for it either.  I have heard many different systems, and tried different amps with different speakers, but my end choices are my own personal and therefore biased ones.  Try different things and make up your mind for yourself.  Just make sure one of the things you try is a pair of Klipsch horn speakers on a SET amp.  Then make your own choice.  If you haven’t heard it, do everyone a favour and shut up about the things you know nothing about.  

[ClaudeJ1]

On 12/25/2018 at 7:57 PM, dwilawyer said:

Fender or Strat

I think you meant: Gibson LesPaul or Fender Stratocaster..............

[ClaudeJ1]

20 hours ago, Dave A said:

Its a shame that the new Heritage series does not offer Baltic Birch construction as an option. I would think it would cost less to build and it satisfied many Klipsch customers for decades. It would cost $72 dollars for two 18mm 60" x 60" sheets of Baltic and $46 dollars for one sheet of 25mm baltic. Cornwall's are how much for a new set? Pure penny pinching at it's finest. Now I would imagine Klipsch pays far less for material by the truckload. These are my prices for this quantity from Mid Tenn Lumber.

There was never any MDF in Hope while Paul Klipsch was the owner. None of that came about until AFTER he sold the company.