Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[Tizman]

Dave A:  I have heard many different Klipsch speakers over the years, and own six different pairs at the moment.  There is something about the La Scala bass bin that really does it for me.  I am doomed as well.  And I'm happy about it.  I like the other Klipsch speakers I have as well, but La Scala's all horn setup trumps the others by a wide margin.

[Dave A]

You can't beat an all horn setup and the bigger the better. The LSI's I had with a recapped AA crossover with the Zeners pulled out of circuit, a set of small MAHL tweeters with DE120 drivers and a pair of soldered lug K-55-V's were awesome. You could feel the music if you were brave enough to turn them up. The all horn idea is what led me to try the MCM 1900 and is what is leading me to the Super MWM + 402 setup. People told me all horns were the way to go and hearing made me a believer.  Cory had a set of Jubes I was able to hear and they are also really good. I love pipe organ music and the La Scalas didn't go low enough for that or I might have just stayed with that LSI set.

  The only compromise I would make today for my personal set of speakers would be for something at least KPT-456 quality and up. Those dual 15" woofers in that bin are not as crisp a bass as the La Scalas but man they do have authority. Otherwise it is pure horns all the way.

[Marvel]

1 hour ago, Tizman said:

Marvel:  Ah 300Bs.  A very linear tube.  I'm working on a 300B amp right now.  The Arthur Loesch Legacy amp.  It's supposed to be very linear.  I hope I like it when it's done because it's going to have around $2500 in parts in it.  If I don't, I can always pick up a 1980's Kenwood or JVC receiver.  They have very low THD, so they will sound good for sure.  Also, convenient tone controls. 

 

@Tizman   I'm sure they will sound terrific. My own amps are a pair of Welborne Labs Moondogs with 2a3 tubes. The new Western Electric plant is only a couple of miles from my house. They have been running tests on all the installation of the manufacturing equipment over the past couple of months and are taking pre-orders for the new run. The guy here who bought the rights to the Western Electric name also got all the orginal equipment ad supplies that were left. They've also got a  new 300B stereo amp in the works (single pc board with ss rectification). It sounds pretty good.

 

I am hoping to get a tour when I get back from vacation.

 

Bruce

[Tizman]

Dave A:  I wish I had the room for your setup.  Actually, I think we do, but my lady thinks we don't.  She is almost certainly right.  I'm working on a set of Klipsch inspired two ways.  FH1 bass bins with Eminence 15Cs, and Altec 511B tops with Renkus Heinz drivers.  It will be possible to time align the drivers with this setup.  ALK designed ES crossovers at 600HZ complete the set.  I'm hoping it will sound even better than the La Scalas.  Either way, I would like to supplement the deep base with a couple of subs, for home theatre mostly.  Your setup doesn't need subs.  I guess I have to compromise and get something smaller.  What though?  A couple of direct radiator subs made out of MDF?  Finally my dream will come true!  I love MDF, it's the ultimate cabinet material.  

 

[Tizman]

Marvel:  I have heard good things about the Welborne Labs Moondogs.  I'm sure they sound great.  I don't have a 2A3 amp, but I may add a heater supply to the Legacy to allow me to use 45s and 2A3s.  Seems like a plan considering the incremental cost, and many folks swear by 2A3s.  I have been following the Western Electric launch here and there.  I don't think there is anyone else manufacturing tubes in the Americas.  It's cool that you are so close by, and that it's Western Electric...   

[tube fanatic]

Read through this current discussion: 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/181087-u2s-one-bad-mastering-or-klipschs-weak-spot/

 

It is the revealing nature of Klipsch speakers which makes some method of tone shaping (or "control" if you will) an absolute necessity.  Without it some recordings are simply unlistenable.  The numerous requests I received for high frequency shaping came from Klipsch owners exclusively and is why I made the "ear bleed" filter standard.

 

In addition, a means of balancing the 2 channels is mandatory in all systems regardless of the speakers used.  I've never understood why so many expensive devices still use a single, ganged, volume control.  Between variations in the recordings, room, and our ears, it is the only way to achieve a centered sound stage.  The only guys I know who don't care about this are those whose only goal is to be assaulted by a massive tidal wave of sound.  For them, such things as sound stage and imaging are a non-issue.

 

A mono switch, or some way to combine the channels is also useful (although not possible at the amp end when using a pair of mono units).  I have some Mormon Tabernacle Choir discs, for example, which they recorded on their own label, which sound as if they came from the early sixties- the female vocalists on the left, the males on the right, and a hole in the center.  I can't listen to them in the room with the system.  It bothers me too much.

 

As to such additions to equipment adding too much distortion, I disagree.  One needs to look at the distortion at the amp's output only if that is a consideration.  Yes, there are those who contend that every extra solder connection, switch, and control ruins the sound by adding distortion.  For those individuals, my advice is to buy equipment which makes you happy.

 

 

Maynard

[ODS123]

5 minutes ago, tube fanatic said:

In addition, a means of balancing the 2 channels is mandatory in all systems regardless of the speakers used.  I've never understood why so many expensive devices still use a single, ganged, volume control.  Between variations in the recordings, room, and our ears, it is the only way to achieve a centered sound stage.  The only guys I know who don't care about this are those whose only goal is to be assaulted by a massive tidal wave of sound.  For them, such things as sound stage and imaging are a non-issue.

 

A mono switch, or some way to combine the channels is also useful (although not possible at the amp end when using a pair of mono units).  I have some Mormon Tabernacle Choir discs, for example, which they recorded on their own label, which sound as if they came from the early sixties- the female vocalists on the left, the males on the right, and a hole in the center.  I can't listen to them in the room with the system.  It bothers me too much.

 

 

Well Said...  Because I often listen early in the am or late at night I'm forced to keep the volume low.  It was surprising that my very expensive Bryston BP pre-amp's channel balance was way off at low volumes.  So much so that the amp went back to be adjusted.  The good news is that with 25 year warranty, the repair was free; the bad news is they didn't completely fix it.  Later on I owned a Peachtree Nova which had precisely the same problem.  Unfortunately, it didn't have a balance control.  So I was compelled to sell it.  Thankfully, my McIntosh doesn't have this problem.  ..But neither does my Onkyo AVR, so I don't think one needs to spend heavily to get a more accurate volume control.

 

And couldn't agree more on the inclusion of a mono switch.  I just used it yesterday while listening to George Winstons December (Windham Hill Recordings) on vinyl.  It's a lovely all-piano recording.  For some reason however it was mixed with a rather exaggerated soundstage.  It's weird hearing some notes coming entirely from the right speaker and others, further down the keyboard, coming from the other.  ..Listening in mono made the recording much more enjoyable. ..Early Beatles too. Though the voices and instruments sound surprisingly lifelike on some early recordings, it's strange having the guitar coming entirely out of one speaker and the voice out of the other.  Again, mono solved this.

 

So, to any beginners still reading this thread (a stretch perhaps considering the non-sequiturs and digressions), give serious consideration to buying a pre-amp, integrated amp, or stereo receiver with these controls.  Once you have it's unlikely you'll never want to part with them.

[Marvel]

23 minutes ago, tube fanatic said:

In addition, a means of balancing the 2 channels is mandatory in all systems regardless of the speakers used.  

 

I agree completely! My tube system has a Juicy Music Audio Merlin linestage with L/R and master volume control. It's still a simple and elegant preamp , and hardly ever comes up for sale on the used market.

 

The picture is not of mine, but the same layout.

 

Bruce

[Tizman]

I too have found that most average ganged volume controls are not very balanced, especially at lower volumes.  I try to use quality controls for my DIY builds, but they can be off a bit too.  For serious amps, stepped controls using matched resistors are the way to go, and you should insist on them when purchasing high dollar amps.  A couple of my amps have two separate volume pots, but this gets annoying very quickly.  Having excellent resolution, resolves poor recordings. That said, I haven’t really found a need for tone controls most of the time.  The noteable exception is with speakers that have uneven frequency response when used with poor recordings.  I have a pair of single driver speakers that required a notch filter to tame this issue. It fixed the FR problem that was obvious with poor recordings, but made good recordings sound less good.  With respect to mono recordings, I have found that the best way to listen to them is through one channel of amplification and one speaker.  This is how mono recordings should be listened to.  If the mono recordings you listen to have the same information on both channels, simply unplug one of the channels.  This has a rightness to it that is far superior to pushing a mono signal through two channels.  When I want to sum poor stereo recordings into mono, I use a DIY line level summing box that I put together in order to listen to music through my 1930’s mono radio console.  This summing box works pretty well when summing a stereo signal, but doesn’t compare to a mono recording played through one channel only.  I was shocked by how good a mono recording sounds when played through one La Scala speaker and one channel of a quality amp.  If you haven’t done this, I strongly suggest giving it a try. 

[ClaudeJ1]

14 hours ago, Tizman said:

PWK never fails to deliver sound opinions and advice.  And he preferred tube amps too!  One should always carefully consider the opinions on upstream components (and preferred materials) of the original designer. Unless you already know everything of course...

Not  true about tube amps. He preferred solid state. I was in PWK's home in 1985 and he had long switched to a BGW 100 and half of a Crown D-75 (for his Belle Center). He played several of his tapes for me, all symphonies with some jazz guest artists. Great sound, but not a single Tube anywhere except in the Museum by the Factory.

[ClaudeJ1]

14 hours ago, Islander said:

When the La Scala II was being designed, two prototype pairs were built, one pair of plywood and one pair of MDF.

 

After listening tests, the MDF LaScala IIs were found to sound better than the plywood ones, so that’s the material the company went with.

apples and oranges, since they didn't use 1" Baltic Birch, it was old LS vs. New LS. Still, the bean counters win.

[ODS123]

12 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

apples and oranges, since they didn't use 1" Baltic Birch, it was old LS vs. New LS. Still, the bean counters win.

 

Again, it's not clear that is the case.  MDF is considerably heavier than birch ply.  ..So it's predictable the the speakers will be more expensive to ship.

 

Still, even if it was a bean counter victory, is that a bad thing??  The list of speaker companies that folded over the years is almost endless.  Thank goodness bean counters have helped Klipsch to survive a very competitive industry.  

[ClaudeJ1]

35 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Again, it's not clear that is the case.  MDF is considerably heavier than birch ply.  ..So it's predictable the the speakers will be more expensive to ship.

 

Still, even if it was a bean counter victory, is that a bad thing??  The list of speaker companies that folded over the years is almost endless.  Thank goodness bean counters have helped Klipsch to survive a very competitive industry.  

I had studio space in a commercial building down the hall from Salk Sound, where all their "very pretty" and decent sounding speakers were made of MDF with Exotic veneers on top. Commercial speakers get beat up on the road, so Baltic Birch is the material of choice. I have no biases either way, I'm just stating facts. My first pair of Khorns were made of Baltic Birch, which was the best year ever for them (1977). I'm using Arauco Plywood for my new TH subs currently as they hold screws better and easier. Choosing MDF has it's compromises, but low cost is certainly part of the equation, along with consistent cross section and air gap free materials. When I toured the Klipsch factory in 1985, there were stacks of plywood front panels that had air gaps and were rejected AFTER the cost of CNC routing and labor was applied, which represented a financial loss to the company. They were going back for credit. It's expensive to have void free plywood, so MDF is a compromise for many companies, including Klipsch. My personal choice for DIY projects is still plywood, Baltic Birch being the best.

[wvu80]

1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

15 hours ago, Islander said:

After listening tests, the MDF LaScala IIs were found to sound better than the plywood ones, so that’s the material the company went with.

apples and oranges, since they didn't use 1" Baltic Birch, it was old LS vs. New LS. Still, the bean counters win.

 

With all due respect, that sounds to me more like a Fuji Apples to Golden Delicious apples-to-apples comparison. 

[wvu80]

1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

Still, even if it was a bean counter victory, is that a bad thing??  

The list of speaker companies that folded over the years is almost endless.  

Thank goodness bean counters have helped Klipsch to survive a very competitive industry.  

 

I think that is a very valid point.  Klipsch is not in the business of making speakers, it's in the business of making money.

[ODS123]

 

14 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I think that is a very valid point.  Klipsch is not in the business of making speakers, it's in the business of making money.

 

Exactly...  What we snidely call penny-pinching might in fact be a company doing all it can to keep as many people employed as possible, give raises, or maintain 401k contributions.. It's ridiculous the way we sometime denigrate managerial accountants.  Klipsch has been making awesome speakers for over 70 years!  They've survived several recessions and huge changes in the audio gear landscape so they're doing something right where so many have failed.   I say Thank god for the bean-counters.

 

15 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

 Choosing MDF has it's compromises, but low cost is certainly part of the equation, along with consistent cross section and air gap free materials. When I toured the Klipsch factory in 1985, there were stacks of plywood front panels that had air gaps and were rejected AFTER the cost of CNC routing and labor was applied, which represented a financial loss to the company.

 

Well if it's correct that the prototype MDF La Scala's were found to sound better (mentioned earlier in thread) AND MDF reduced production costs, then I'd say that is a double win.  Heck, it's still a win if they only cost less but sound the same. 

 

Yes,  ply is a better choice if speakers are constantly being moved from club to club, hung from the ceiling of sports venues or maybe used outdoors..  But for the vast majority of us, our speakers see no more of this sort of frequent moving or exposure to the elements than our turntable,  amplifiers or flat-screen TVs.

 

 

[Dave A]

33 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

I think that is a very valid point.  Klipsch is not in the business of making speakers, it's in the business of making money.

Well yes but how do they intend to make money, a printing press? It is a calculated risk as to how cheaply you can make something and still have buyers. It is why a large number of people like me refuse to buy CNC anything from China because too many corners are cut reducing the value of the product. The only way this works is for all companies to do the same quality reduction so the buyer theoretically has no where else to go to beat the general deterioration of the products quality. It is a complete mystery to me why so many are willing to accept shoddy work and quality today. I have been asked to go to some expensive houses around Nashville for architectural metalwork. Big and expensive and the workmanship is appalling. Sad thing is these people are oblivious to inferior work. The nice houses from years ago have nice work in them in general. When I look at something I also consider the quality of the whole and not just the part being promoted while the deficiencies are swept under the carpet.

  No I am not saying Klipsch makes shoddy looking stuff before you put words in my mouth. The new speakers are beautiful but they are also MDF (just like everyone else's). And just like all the rest they depend on customers who have become complacent and willing to accept less while paying more. I build things and have done so since 1981. I see more than many who do not build and have no concept of why certain things are essential parts of quality builds. The bean counters may be right that consumers are growing less able to see quality and probably don't care so why shouldn't they make things out of cheaper goods? This whole debate over clearly inferior material and the defense of it by some who do not build things nor see why it is bad is indicative that the bean counters are probably right with the calculated risk inferior material usage can bring costing them customers.

  In the mean time I will build mine from good lumber and can see why so many pro's in Nashville go the custom build route. I know good quality means what you can see and hear and also what you can't see hidden away inside where you can't readily see it.

 

  I am amused by the straw man comment on the La Scala builds. Absolutely no information on what specifically was used to arrive at that conclusion. They compared what? Who knows.

[Marvel]

I belive someone on here got a pair of LSII prototypes that were made from one inch BB. I'm sure others remember seeing them. They would certainly be solid.

 

Bruce

[jason str]

8 minutes ago, Marvel said:

I belive someone on here got a pair of LSII prototypes that were made from one inch BB. I'm sure others remember seeing them. They would certainly be solid.

 

Bruce

 

That would be the set to get.

 

 

[Dave A]

1 minute ago, Marvel said:

I belive someone on here got a pair of LSII prototypes that were made from one inch BB. I'm sure others remember seeing them. They would certainly be solid.

 

Bruce

When I was considering building that is exactly what I would have used for the outside and 3/4" for the doghouse. The Baltic Birch available from my supplier is guaranteed void free and you might pay extra for that but you cant beat the rigidity and strength. After the S-MWM build I am going to build a set of KPT-456's out of 1" Baltic for myself. They will be passed down to my children who will have them for many years too. Lots of old Baltic Birch built speakers still around but somehow I don't think the average life of MDF will ever be close.