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Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club


ODS123

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5 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

I have 3 different model Sony ES CD players and all sound different, so even different models from the same manufacturer sound different.

 

Same goes for every other piece of audio equipment i have owned, all had a signature sound of their own.

 

You say that but I very much doubt you'd be able to pick one from the other in a blinded trial. 

 

Referring back to the Clubs amp comparison:  

 

 Let's remember that system A had a $50 dvd player; System B a several thousand dollar transport/DAC combo.  System A had 15' generic thin interconnects; System B had very short and expensive interconnects.  System A a generic power cord; System B a pricey one. And so on.  ..You would think that even if the $4000 pre/ amp combo didn't sound better than the $199 Behringer, then certainly ALL the other stuff would raise System B well above A.  .  Well, that is if all that other stuff, as believed by many audiophiles,  really does significantly contribute to how a system sounds.  

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2 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

You say that but I very much doubt you'd be able to pick one from the other in a blinded trial. 

 

Referring back to the Clubs amp comparison:  

 

 Let's remember that system A had a $50 dvd player; System B a several thousand dollar transport/DAC combo.  System A had 15' generic thin interconnects; System B had very short and expensive interconnects.  System A a generic power cord; System B a pricey one. And so on.  ..You would think that even if the $4000 pre/ amp combo didn't sound better than the $199 Behringer, then certainly ALL the other stuff would raise System B well above A.  .  Well, that is if all that other stuff, as believed by many audiophiles,  really does significantly contribute to how a system sounds.  

 

After you spend years listening to something and then change something in the chain you bet i can tell the difference, so could anybody else without a tin ear.

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Everyone here is giving their own personal anecdotal accounts of how "I can hear a difference b/w this and than amp, cable, interconnect, etc...."  without doing ANYTHING to rule out the influence of expectation bias.  Which will naturally arise ANY time you make a change and are aware of it.

 

Expectation bias is a very powerful thing.  It explains why people participating in clinical drug trials will often report improvement in symptoms EVEN when given a placebo.  And these are people who know fully well they may have been given an inert control medication.  The number would be much higher if they were told that everyone was getting the active drug.

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8 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Simply not true.  I'll grant that it's not easy, but certainly possible.   

 

And no need to let the challenges of a DBT stand in the way of using some sort of bias controls.  For example, simple volume matching during comparisons would be useful.  And a go a step further and have a friend/ family member change speaker cables around while you leave the room, then power up and return the playing amp to the same volume level.  This simple exercise would be very eye-opening for gold-eared audiophiles.  Yet... people resist.  They'd rather claim to be able to hear huge, meaningful differences b/w amps.

 

As for speaker/ interconnect cables:  I've suggested countless times that people simply connect a pricey one to one channel, a cheap to the other than switch back and forth using the balance control (assuming you have one) while listening to a mono recording.  Are those differences b/w the pricey and generic cabling still audible??

 

 

 

 

You place your faith in the DBT religion and I will place mine in long term listening.

 

Just because you state your position repeatedly with forceful conviction does not make it accurate.

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2 hours ago, Deang said:
2 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

What I have found is there is a lot of psychology, as well as salesmanship when it comes to audio. 

That applies to everything. Was that supposed to be revelatory?

I couldn't respond without coming across as snarky, but this is one of the things I was referring to: 

35 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Everyone here is giving their own personal anecdotal accounts of how "I can hear a difference b/w this and than amp, cable, interconnect, etc...."  without doing ANYTHING to rule out the influence of expectation bias.  Which will naturally arise ANY time you make a change and are aware of it.

 

Expectation bias is a very powerful thing.

Back in the day it was salesman who used "expectation bias" to their advantage by telling you what you should hear....Nowadays folks on the internet seem to do the same thing although I don't think everyone's motives are bad or sales related. THAT was my point. 

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33 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Not everything... Just modern day amplifiers, cd-players and cables.   Audible differences b/w speakers are definitely audible.

 

And how about PWK?  Where do you think he'd stand on this??

OK I went back to the original OD comment and quoted it correctly this time.

 

18 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Can't help myself. He would say the BS button was started with people like you in mind. So you channel PWK in your seances now?

How about this version Jason?

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17 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Can't help myself. He would say the BS button was started with people like you in mind. So you channel PWK in your seances now?

 

people who want to empirical evidence?  ..nope.

 

We already heard from those who knew him he had an inexpensive cd player, non-exotic amplification, and didn't believe in pricey cables.  And that he'd point to his button as we walked through stores where this stuff is sold.

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2 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

We already heard from those who knew him he had an inexpensive cd player, non-exotic amplification, and didn't believe in pricey cables.  And that he'd point to his button as we walked through stores where this stuff is sold.

If you read his biography you would rind he even flashed it at his preacher! 😎

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4 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Everyone here is giving their own personal anecdotal accounts of how "I can hear a difference b/w this and than amp, cable, interconnect, etc...."  without doing ANYTHING to rule out the influence of expectation bias.  Which will naturally arise ANY time you make a change and are aware of it.

 

Expectation bias is a very powerful thing.  It explains why people participating in clinical drug trials will often report improvement in symptoms EVEN when given a placebo.  And these are people who know fully well they may have been given an inert control medication.  The number would be much higher if they were told that everyone was getting the active drug.

If you are so easily swayed by brands and audio bling, maybe you should rely on DBTs.

 

Many of us, though, can hear the differences, trust our ears and are secure enough to want the best sound we can afford - bling and brands notwithstanding.

 

Audio is all about preferences - choosing the gear that best connects us to the music we love. Music is emotion and you are telling folks to take the emotion out of the equation.

 

We all hear and react differently to the aural stimulus that is music. Further, how we translate that stimulus into an emotional response is an individual reaction.

 

You might have the most perfect system in the world but if it leaves me cold, I wouldn't own it.

 

We seem to be speaking completely different languages regarding this subject.

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3 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

If you read his biography you would rind he even flashed it at his preacher! 😎

 

I have no issue with that.. :)

 

As I said earlier in the thread, much of hifi today would present a sizable moral dilemma for Mr. PWK himself.   As an engineer steeped in the Scientific Method he spent a career calling out BS like unsubstantiated claims .  Yet to survive today, his company needs a network of retailers who, by necessity, must traffic in these sorts of claims as they can't survive on speakers alone.  It's hard to imagine him visiting one of his retailers and not feeling compelled to point to his BS button when he sees expensive DACs, power conditioners, cables, power cords, and yes over-engineered pricey amps that are sold w/ unsubstantiated claims they sound better. I'm pretty sure he'd point to his button.

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17 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

You might have the most perfect system in the world but if it leaves me cold, I wouldn't own it.

 

We seem to be speaking completely different languages regarding this subject.

Seriously? I have heard several dozen nice systems and gotta admit none have left me cold. Otoh, a really bad system is easier to differentiate for me (as well as most others would be my guess). 

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18 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

Seriously? I have heard several dozen nice systems and gotta admit none have left me cold. Otoh, a really bad system is easier to differentiate for me (and most others here would be my guess). 

One example: had the opportunity to listen to, at length and over time, the big Wilsons driven by big Levinson amps, Levinson preamp and Levinson CD player. All wired up with cables as big around as my wrist. Mid-six figure system.

 

Could not truly relax and connect with the music on this system. My Bride summed it up perfectly: "Every note is there, but there is no emotion."

 

Went home to the Lowthers driven by Quicksilver SET300B amps and was immediately involved.

 

It is very possible that we listen differently and for different things. Every person will develop and have their own listening biases. Doesn't mean that any are wrong, just different from others and individual to that person.

 

Just my opinion.

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I went to "the show" in Irvine, CA and was TREMENDOUSLY disappointed in just about all of thd meagbuck systems.   Just very dull and lifeless sounding.   Tons of detail but there was zero connection to the music, so I understand exactly what you are talking about.  The music being played was often high red and or very well recorded music with tons of dynamics that just didn't exist.   Bass response?   Poor mostly across the board.   Not being funny when I say the only two systems that I really liked (there were a couple non horn systems that did sound quite good) were the large horn speakers.   Very large JBL's with beryllium drivers and ocean labs mastering speakers.   These two systems were AWESOME!   So there you have it, 50 to 100k and up does NOT gaurentee you will be satisfied.   All I could think about while I was there is how my klipsch system Was a FRACTION of the cost of the average system there and to my ears and bias the clear winner.  

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6 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

 All I could think about while I was there is how my klipsch system Was a FRACTION of the cost of the average system there and to my ears and bias the clear winner.  

Now we are getting back to the crux of the matter---Buy the speakers you like and can afford and work backwards. ;) I continuously auditioned speakers and setups after my speaker purchase below (and several others before I settled down) and thought the same thing. 

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1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said:

Now we are getting back to the crux of the matter---Buy the speakers you like and can afford and work backwards. ;) I continuously auditioned speakers and setups after my speaker purchase below (and several others before I settled down) and thought the same thing. 

I'm always game to hear something new.   Why I left klipsch and came back several times.   I'm a strong believer in the point of diminishing returns as far as audio is concerned now.   

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

Referring back to the Clubs amp comparison:  

 

Let's remember that system A had a $50 dvd player; System B a several thousand dollar transport/DAC combo.  System A had 15' generic thin interconnects; System B had very short and expensive interconnects.  System A a generic power cord; System B a pricey one. And so on.  ..You would think that even if the $4000 pre/ amp combo didn't sound better than the $199 Behringer, then certainly ALL the other stuff would raise System B well above A. Well, that is if all that other stuff, as believed by many audiophiles, really does significantly contribute to how a system sounds.  

You should just copy this to Notepad and paste it every time you feel like posting, it’ll save you a lot of keystrokes. 

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