Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[Deang]

5 hours ago, ODS123 said:

We already heard from those who knew him he had an inexpensive cd player, non-exotic amplification, and didn't believe in pricey cables.  And that he'd point to his button as we walked through stores where this stuff is sold.

 

Undoubtedly true regarding the cables. I don’t doubt the low priced CD player as he was no fan of the compact disc. As for amplification, I’ve been to his home, and Ms. Valerie had all of his McIntosh gear disconnected and sitting next to one of the Klipschorns. The single Jubilee in the dining room had an old Kenwood receiver sitting next to it - which we fired up for a brief period after we got the Jubilee wiring situation straightened out. It didn’t sound very good.

 

Please keep in mind that The Man was almost a hundred years old. Sometime during the later 80’s or early 90’s, while speaking to someone about returning the Klipschorn back to two-way, he was asked what high frequency driver he was going to use. He quipped that it didn’t matter because he could only hear to 8kHz. 

[garyrc]

13 hours ago, windashine said:

… o O (how about that cell phone commercial... can you hear me now...) like after 20 pages .. o O (like what ???) oh, yes I can hear music, check yes...

 

Didn't that originally come from a movie?  I seem to remember somebody wading in ocean breakers to get into a zone where his phone could be picked up by a tower.  Or was that scene in the movie a satire on the commercial?

[Marvel]

I think the latter. It was a great advertising line.

[Deang]

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/audio-amplifiers-sound

[TubeHiFiNut]

2 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

It's also when I discovered that various tube amplifiers sounded way better than 70's solid state. Until, of course, Matti Otala discovered the reason why and the SS industry was repaired!

 

If I remember, you use Class D amps?

 

Ended up using a TPA3250 with an Astron 28v linear power supply to drive some very difficult B&W CDM1. The little TPA3250 acquitted itself admirably.

[TubeHiFiNut]

2 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

Okay. I appreciate your explanation and understand where you are coming from...I'm not sure if it was the speakers but feel it had more to do with your preference for tube amps. Happy New Year!

I use sand amps if the application (speaker) is not compatible with my SE or low power (<40 watts) PP tube amps.

 

When I get my triode modified Audio Research D160 recapped, I'll have a bruiser tube amp (~80 wpc) to add back into the mix.

 

The last Levinson powered system I liked was a HQD powered by four Levinson ML2 (pure Class A) per side. Instead of the Levinson preamp, this one used an Audio Research SP3A-1. Truly awesome system!

 

So, I can't tell you with 100% certainty if it was the speakers, electronics, wire or some combination that rendered the presentation on the Wilson based system as rather sterile, cold and not at all involving.

 

For that kind of money, I should have to change underwear after every listening session.

 

Just my opinion. 

[Tizman]

6 hours ago, Deang said:

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/audio-amplifiers-sound

This article is very interesting.  I have put my faith in science for a long time.  However, the history of science is rife with the negative influences of orthodoxy, money and many other things that have slowed the path of its progress.  It's easy to move along with the crowd and believe in the things that everyone else believes in.  The world isn't round, ulcers are caused by stress, its impossible to fly, etc.  I believe that "If it measures good and sounds bad, it's bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, you've measured the wrong thing." is absolutely true.  We aren't measuring the right thing.  The THD wars of the end of the last century are a clear example of this.  So many bad components sold by measuring only one thing and talking about it as though it was the only thing that mattered.  Does anyone know exactly what to measure that will correlate to audio quality?  It appears that the answer is no, although a lot of things are measured and presented to the public as being the things that correlate to audio quality.  It also appears that orthodoxy and market pressures conspire not only to keep the answer from us, they also conspire to keep us from even asking the question.  I have seen a lot of crappy audio products in the past 30 years presented as being of good quality, and I have seen the people that said they were crappy at the time being told that they didn't know what they were talking about.  It's not about blind testing.  It's entirely subjective because there is currently no objective way to measure whatever it is that correlates to my subjective experience.  I will not ignore my subjective experiences in order to satisfy the Objectivists that haven't figured out what to measure yet, but feel like they have all the information required to tell me I'm wrong.  Maybe next year they will figure it out.         

 

 

[pzannucci]

8 hours ago, Deang said:

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/audio-amplifiers-sound

Interesting...

That article leads me back to the posts about SS and Tubes from the 70's.  The two integrated amps ( liked the best when I was younger were an old Yamaha CA-800 / CA-1000 and an old Harman Kardon amp.  I'm not sure how the Yamaha measured though it was a powerhouse for the day, but Harman was touting something new, square wave response and high speed circuits.  I will say a lot of the SS amps of the day sounded terrible compared to these.

 

As far as DBT, I'm not sure you would be able to pick out equipment at a 100% rate though I do know you will hear the differences and lean toward the sound you like.  Of course you should allocate much more for the speakers than the amplification (unless you are using a lot of manipulation in the electronics to modify the behavior of the speakers).

 

I did break that rule when I purchased my REF-1000s to go with my home built speakers that I had only invested $3K in... because I liked what I heard and the amps didn't break a sweat when driving the speakers to insane levels with their ugly impedance.  It's all synergy and sometimes jewelry's bling bling to satisfy the psychological self that makes it come together.. 

[tromprof]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 10:40 PM, dwilawyer said:

Of course there are.

 

My point Bruce, was that these guys appeared to me to be spinning around in circles about what can be heard, not heard,  and when I saw the analogy to a string ensemble it reminded me of the great Strad debate

 

I don't know of anyone who says I am going to see this concent because a Stradivarius will be played, or a Herman Hauser, or a '59 this, or a pre-XX that.  Is is almost always "I'm going to go see this guy."

 

 

 

 

 

Strad violins are not valuable because they sound good, they are valuable because they are old and collectable. 

Many do sound quite good, others are dogs. Just like audio equipment, price (and name) does not confer sound quality.

Hillary Hahn would sound good on a $100 factory Chinese fiddle.

[ODS123]

12 hours ago, Tizman said:

This article is very interesting.  I have put my faith in science for a long time.  However, the history of science is rife with the negative influences of orthodoxy, money and many other things that have slowed the path of its progress.  It's easy to move along with the crowd and believe in the things that everyone else believes in.  The world isn't round, ulcers are caused by stress, its impossible to fly, etc.  I believe that "If it measures good and sounds bad, it's bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, you've measured the wrong thing." is absolutely true.  We aren't measuring the right thing.  The THD wars of the end of the last century are a clear example of this.  So many bad components sold by measuring only one thing and talking about it as though it was the only thing that mattered.  Does anyone know exactly what to measure that will correlate to audio quality?  It appears that the answer is no, although a lot of things are measured and presented to the public as being the things that correlate to audio quality.  It also appears that orthodoxy and market pressures conspire not only to keep the answer from us, they also conspire to keep us from even asking the question.  I have seen a lot of crappy audio products in the past 30 years presented as being of good quality, and I have seen the people that said they were crappy at the time being told that they didn't know what they were talking about.  It's not about blind testing.  It's entirely subjective because there is currently no objective way to measure whatever it is that correlates to my subjective experience.  I will not ignore my subjective experiences in order to satisfy the Objectivists that haven't figured out what to measure yet, but feel like they have all the information required to tell me I'm wrong.  Maybe next year they will figure it out.         

 

 

 

Yes, biases have stood in the way of good science. ..No doubt.  That's why peer reviews and the FDA, etc. etc. exist.  But to cast science and it's attendant validity and honesty controls aside b/c people have engaged in bad science is silly, IMHO.  It reminds me a bit of people who resist taking prescription medications because "pharma companies can't be trusted!" but happily gobble down supplements they buy from GNC or Whole Foods.  ..Having no assurances whatsoever as to the contents of the bottle or it's efficacy and safety.

 

As to your question, which spec matters most?  I'd suggest to beginners that the spec that matters most is the percentage of times people can reliably tell one amp from another WHEN they don't know which is playing.   The Audio Club referenced in this thread and the thousands who tried, but failed, to take the prize in Richard Clarks $10,000 Amplifier Challenge suggests that percentage is equal to chance.   By comparison, it's quite easy to tell speakers apart.

[Ski Bum]

@ODS123, I'm as much of a no-BS crotchety reductionist as anyone when it comes to audio kit, but even I have a soft spot for SE amps.  Despite the lack of comity in this thread, I think you shouldn't rule them out on principle.  If you need some down to earth reasons to give them a try, read this:

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Amplifier_distortion.htm   

[ClaudeJ1]

13 hours ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

If I remember, you use Class D amps?

 

Ended up using a TPA3250 with an Astron 28v linear power supply to drive some very difficult B&W CDM1. The little TPA3250 acquitted itself admirably.

Currently trying a Class A Jfet, but I do like class D Hypex as my fave for "neutrality." Nice to have horns where 10 watts is plenty but can take 500 if you want to get "stupid loud." Yesterday, for the first time, I heard a 3 Watt single ended Tube amp  K402's and TADS and the delicacy of the highs was wonderful (class AB on the Jube bins). The right amp for the right speaker!

[TubeHiFiNut]

6 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The right amp for the right speaker!

 

This is, without a doubt, the best advice we can give to every audio hobbyist - newbie or "old hand". 

[jjptkd]

10 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

 

This is, without a doubt, the best advice we can give to every audio hobbyist - newbie or "old hand". 

 

I would just add in a specific room to the list as I believe the room has almost if not an equal share in the sound as the speaker itself. I have assembled many complete systems for people and myself over the years and I can say that the same amp and speakers can sound dramatically different from one house / room to the next. 

 

One example for me was my Chorus II's in my old apt bedroom powered by a little Jolida 102b integrated sounded absolutely wonderful and plenty loud could hardly turn the volume up past 10 o'clock before the walls would feel like they were coming down. I moved to an old farm house and that same exact set up in a slightly larger room and it fell flat on its face, had that been my only experience with the Jolida I would have just assumed it was junk. 

[Tizman]

2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

As to your question, which spec matters most?  I'd suggest to beginners that the spec that matters most is the percentage of times people can reliably tell one amp from another WHEN they don't know which is playing.   The Audio Club referenced in this thread and the thousands who tried, but failed, to take the price in Richard Clarks $10,000 Amplifier Challenge suggests that percentage is equal to chance.   By comparison, it's quite easy to tell speakers apart.

That’s not a spec the last I checked.  Is this one on your clipboard yet?  Maybe you are right, just drink the Kool-aid and take your Soma.  It’s easier than questioning things.

[Zen Traveler]

38 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

44 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The right amp for the right speaker!

 

This is, without a doubt, the best advice we can give to every audio hobbyist - newbie or "old hand". 

Given that this is in the General Forum section it reminds me the big difference between the Home Theater Hobbyist compared to the 2 Channel Crowds needs. Imo, there can be more playing around with different amps in the latter but for Home Theater/Multichannel music,  folks use SS amps that should be pretty consistent in their sound when comparing similar speced units (including impedance requirements). That is where the beginner should decide which formats they want to play and the purchase processor which suits their needs....Affordable all-in-one AVRs really have come along with upperend trickling down to lower end units and all getting less expensive compared with 15 years ago.

 

19 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

I would just add in a specific room to the list as I believe the room has almost if not an equal share in the sound as the speaker itself. I have assembled many complete systems for people and myself over the years and I can say that the same amp and speakers can sound dramatically different from one house / room to the next. 

Rooms, Obstacles and Environment is definitely on the short list. 

[Deang]

I agree with much of that, but do believe each manufacturer has a “house sound”. Denon does not sound like Onkyo - I would be surprised if many on the HT side of things didn’t agree with me. It’s not a jaw dropping difference, but it is different. 

[Deang]

“... I'd suggest to beginners that the spec that matters most is the percentage of times people can reliably tell one amp from another WHEN they don't know which is playing.”

 

I’ve asked this several times now across several threads - how is a purchaser supposed to do this? Are you ever going to answer the question?

 

There is no single specification that matters most. 

 

 

 

“The Audio Club referenced in this thread and the thousands who tried, but failed, to take the price in Richard Clarks $10,000 Amplifier Challenge suggests that percentage is equal to chance.”

 

You have get 24 out of 24 correct. It’s a ludicrous “challenge”. 

 

On another forum, after reading about the challenge, the person sold all of their tube gear and bought Emotiva. He was not happy. 

 

 

 

By comparison, it's quite easy to tell speakers apart.

 

You sure? 

 

The year Klipsch released the Cornwall III, we had a Gathering at Klipsch Headquarters. One of the demos they had set up was an A/B test between the Cornwall III and RF-7. Everything was behind a large black curtain. Everyone got a clipboard with questions and a place for comments. This listening test also had a challenge - we were asked to guess which speaker was playing when the switch was flipped. I had no less than three people confess to me after the test that they really couldn’t tell a difference.

[wvu80]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

I agree with much of that, but do believe each manufacturer has a “house sound”. Denon does not sound like Onkyo -

 

I would be surprised if many on the HT side of things didn’t agree with me. It’s not a jaw dropping difference, but it is different. 

 

I'm on the multi-channel side and I agree completely with your assessment.  In addition even within a single brand the AVR's have many codecs which change the characteristic sound just as drastically as changing speakers.

[Zen Traveler]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

This listening test also had a challenge - we were asked to guess which speaker was playing when the switch was flipped. I had no less than three people confess to me after the test that they really couldn’t tell a difference.

I remember that. I could tell a difference and slightly preferred the Cornwall III, but later found the speakers weren't level matched and it was 3 dB louder than the RF-7.