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Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club


ODS123

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6 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

I don't need gobs of watts, just the right kind (SE) of watts. ;)

I was speaking in particular to when Emotiva entered the market and I was constantly debating folks over at AVS who seemed to think everyone needed one.Then I saw those same people later had moved on to more expensive amps and making the same "Night and Day" difference claims without ever considering level-matching  or how loud they listened to the material. IOW, they weren't comparing apples to apples and seemed to only want to "upgrade" to the next thing they wanted to brag about on the internet--I can dig it, but felt they were leading others astray by telling folks they had to have an external amp to get the most out of their system without really doing a fair comparison.

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1 hour ago, Zen Traveler said:

Umm. Codex?  (snip)

 

I think I used the right term.  Maybe listening modes?  Each AVR has their own verbiage.

 

My Onk 717 AVR has Dobly PL IIx, Panarama, Mono, Stereo, Neo:6, Pure Audio, Theater Dimensional and I can change those for Music, Movie/TV, Game and THX.  The combinations boggle the mind, and they all sound different from one another greatly, it is NOT subtle.

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17 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

I don't need gobs of watts for my Belles, just the right kind (SE) of watts. ;)

 

My Belles sound great with as little as 2 watts. If I feel the need for more power there is always the 16WPC 211 Monoblock Amps to warm the place up with.

 

Wb

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Just now, Wolfbane said:

 

My sound great with as little as 2 watts. If I feel the need for more power there is always the 16WPC 211 Monoblock Amps to warm the place up with.

 

Wb

Mine are 2A3, 300B and 845 SET and EL84 SEP.

 

Just picked up a new EL84 PP amp that is impressing me. Wondering how it might sound on the Quad ESL57. 🤔

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30 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Mine are 2A3, 300B and 845 SET and EL84 SEP.

 

Just picked up a new EL84 PP amp that is impressing me. Wondering how it might sound on the Quad ESL57. 🤔

 

I've run amps using all the tubes you list except the 300B's. EL84 PP amps sound great with Klipsch speakers. As to Quad I have no experience or educated opinion.

 

Wb

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Wow what a thread...😄

 

I would like to make one comment about level matching and what appears a simple procedure is actually extremely complicated as it pertains to comparisons of measurements test as well as listening comparison testing of individual loudspeaker drivers let alone complete loudspeaker systems. We all know how much loudspeakers Frequency vs SPL varies over their bandwidth so selecting and matching at a certain specific frequency or specific bandwidth portion of the loudspeakers that are under comparison is a compromise out of necessity and could easily lead to false impressions. I have found that variations of as little as .5db in Frequency/SPL over a bandwidth of an octave are easily perceived in many situations to a trained ear when dialing in a loudspeaker system with a high quality DSP processor.

 

So when someone says levels were matched for comparison testing it should also be specified how that was accomplished. There is real possibility that  Listening comparison results might vary under different level matching criteria.

 

miketn

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:
2 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

Umm. Codex?  (snip)

 

I think I used the right term.  Maybe listening modes?  Each AVR has their own verbiage.

What you are referring to are listening modes. I am not sophisticated enough if those qualify as codex now that you mention it but what I know codex to be are what the material is encoded such as, SACD, DTS,, Dolby Digital and the various Blu-ray formats... There is definitely a difference in listening modes between companies and even within the same ones offerings but that has to do with the processor and not the amps that we were discussing. When it comes to choosing an AVR with the processing you are talking about we are in agreement--pick the one that fits your needs and is within your budget.

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10 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

So when someone says levels were matched for comparison testing it should also be specified how that was accomplished

I appreciate your impute and expertise. What I am talking about is those of us with SPL meters to level-match what we are comparing using familiar material instead of winging it by ear.

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20 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

What you are referring to are listening modes. I am not sophisticated enough if those qualify as codex now that you mention it but what I know codex to be are what the material is encoded in such as, SACD, DVD, Blu-ray, etc

 

I just searched both my Marantz and Onkyo manuals.  Neither mentioned a codex.

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29 minutes ago, Wolfbane said:

 

I've run amps using all the tubes you list except the 300B's. EL84 PP amps sound great with Klipsch speakers. As to Quad I have no experience or educated opinion.

 

Wb

In the past, I've used Dynaco ST35 and Heath UA2 to drive the ESL57. This new one should also work very well. :)

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38 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

I appreciate your impute and expertise. What I am talking about is those of us with SPL meters to level-match what we are comparing using familiar material instead of winging it by ear.

That is an especially useless endeavor - you should be using pink noise. 

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9 hours ago, robert_kc said:

 

If I designed solid-state amplifiers for a living, I might care about comparing two modern solid-state amplifiers.    (Though I certainly wouldn’t use this as my main criterion for designing an amp).  However, I don’t design amps, and I’m not particularly concerned with comparing similar solid-state amps.

 

I’m a classical music lover.  What I care about is the sound that arrives at my listening chair from my hi-fi system.  (As has already been discussed, critical factors include the synergy between the amp and speakers, the synergy between the speakers and room, quality of the recording, along with other factors.)   For me, the $64k question is:  Does the reproduced sound create a pleasant illusion that I’m in the symphony hall or opera house?  I simply don’t care if the amplifier meets someone else’s technical criteria (e.g., “straight wire with gain”).  And I’m not concerned with the results of an ABX test that compares similar modern solid-state amps, because my experience (based on 5 hi-fi systems that include more than two dozen amps) is that I generally prefer tube amps for classical music and Klipsch speakers.

 

I believe a key issue is this:  What is a consumer’s benchmark for excellent sound quality from their hi-fi system?   I believe that each person must define the goals for their hi-fi system.   You appear to be presenting as a benchmark a modern solid-state amp that is “linear”.   However, many experienced hobbyists have reported that a modern solid-state amp doesn’t necessarily result in the most “musical” in-home listening experience.  IMO you are suggesting the wrong criterion for someone who is a music lover (particularly if they listen to natural music for which there is a relatively clear benchmark).  And IMO you are suggesting the wrong criterion for someone who is interested in participating in hi-fi as a hobby (e.g., the newbie who wants to invest more time than one trip to a big-box store when making their selection for an amp).

 

As I said earlier, pairing Klipsch speakers with an amp that is “linear” makes little sense to me.  What makes sense to me is pairing Klipsch with an amp that results in good sound quality.  I’m not concerned with an amp being “faithful to the incoming signal”.  I’m more concerned about whether the sound that arrives at my listening chair reminds me of a live performance in the symphony hall.

 

$64k question for the newbie:  Do you wish to participate in hi-fi as a hobby or not?  For the person who answers yes, they’re unlikely to be content with allowing others to hear and think for them.  Analogies are dangerous, nonetheless I’ll offer one:   Has ABX double-blind testing proven that one wine is better than another?  If not, should everyone drink the cheapest bottle of wine for a specified varietal?   Some people are content with the cheapest option that meets their basic needs, whereas others enjoy judging for themselves what they like (i.e., John Q. Public vs. hobbyist/enthusiast).

 

I enjoy my approach to the hobby of hi-fi, and my approach to the enjoyment of recorded music.  Some newbies will enjoy forming their own opinions, based on their unique approach to the hobby.  Others (non-hobbyists) are content with some expert making a recommendation for a mass-market modern solid-state amp (i.e., an amp they can buy at a big-box store).   People are different.

 

I think that if you were writing for Consumer Reports, and your audience were John Q. Public (i.e., someone who is not a hobbyist and will purchase an amp from a big-box store) then your comments would have relevance for a relatively higher percentage of readers.  However, you are writing on a forum for hi-fi hobbyists, and the premise of your entire approach to decision making (i.e., no one has (arguably) proven that similar solid-state amps sound different, therefore buy the cheapest modern solid-state amp that meets your basic needs) will likely resonate with a relatively lower percentage of readers.  Many experienced hobbyists have said that they prefer amps other than “big-box store solid-state amps”, and that’s something that a newbie hobbyist might want to consider.

 

Regarding “proving” that someone can hear differences in audio technologies, my suggestion is this:  Spend as many hours as you wish reading about the complexities of - and problems with – ABX testing.   You’ll find that it’s a very complicated topic.  The more you read, the less likely you’ll conclude that ABX testing for audio quality is straightforward and meaningful, and the more likely you’ll conclude that ABX testing for audio quality is fraught with problems.  You’re presenting ABX testing as an infallible approach to audio testing, whereas this is hotly debated.   

 

Moreover, your suggested test is highly restrictive (only comparing modern solid-state amps that are linear).

 

Moreover - and most important IMO - your suggested test is focused on the wrong issue, i.e., do two similar modern solid-state amps sound different, vs. which amp (whether tube or solid-state) results in the most musical sound when paired with particular speakers – as judged by the consumer.  Who cares if two modern solid-state amps sound the same, if the consumer concludes that the most musical sounding amp for a given pair of Klipsch speakers is a tube amp?

 

As has been pointed out repeatedly, why not suggest that the newbie who is interested in hi-fi as a hobby listen with their own ears, and suggest that they consider the full range of options (e.g., solid-state amps, tube amps, LPs, streaming, CDs, “hi-res” recordings, etc.)?  

 

As I’ve said before, here’s my advice for a newbie to the hobby of hi-fi:  https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/180122-advice-for-beginners/&do=findComment&comment=2324328

This post is so thoughtful and concise, that closing the thread and considering it as the last word makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for sharing.

 

Shakey

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9 hours ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

It's called Test Anxiety. From Wikipedia:

 

"Test anxiety is a combination of physiological over-arousal, tension and somatic symptoms, along with worry, dread, fear of failure, and catastrophizing, that occur before or during test situations. It is a physiological condition in which people experience extreme stress, anxiety, and discomfort during and/or before taking a test."

 

Whether you are taking a test in school, your driver's test at the DMV or a DBT/ABX test at your audio club, many folks are not at their best. I wonder how the physiological changes impact hearing?

 

We listen to music to relax. Could the simple matter of being "under test" introduce stress, even subconsciously, and compromise the aural acuity of some of the folks taking the test?

 

Just some food for thought.

 

There is an "inverted U" function for most performance (including test taking) and some perception as cortical arousal increases.  Performance tends to get better as arousal increases, for a while, until the maximum quality of performance/perception is reached at the top of the inverted U.  Then, if arousal continues to increase, performance/perception worsens as we slide down the right hand side of the inverted U.

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12 hours ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

It's called Test Anxiety. From Wikipedia:

 

"Test anxiety is a combination of physiological over-arousal, tension and somatic symptoms, along with worry, dread, fear of failure, and catastrophizing, that occur before or during test situations. It is a physiological condition in which people experience extreme stress, anxiety, and discomfort during and/or before taking a test."

 

 

Sorry but I don't believe this at all.  I very much doubt that all those participating in Richard Clark's Amplifier challenge were suffering from "dread, fear of failure and catastrophizing"  Remember, the weren't betting their money against his, it was win $10k or lose nothing.

 

It's like saying "I'm an expert chess player, I display exemplary strategy both offensively and defensively."   ..Then, after losing, saying "Well, the my skills deteriorate whenever I actually play chess."

 

To beginners still following the discussion I'd point out:  Just how significant and important could differences b/w amps really be if an audiophiles ability to discern them is so fragile that it completely collapses from the pressure of being asked to actually identify them.  ..just seems incredibly far-fetched to me.

 

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16 hours ago, Deang said:

I agree with much of that, but do believe each manufacturer has a “house sound”. Denon does not sound like Onkyo - I would be surprised if many on the HT side of things didn’t agree with me. It’s not a jaw dropping difference, but it is different. 

 

I believe this to be a myth.  As I said before, my Cornwall IIIs sound exactly the same to me and everyone in my family regardless of whether they're being driven by my Mac amp (replete w/ anachronistic autoformers) my Onkyo AVR or my $130 AudioSource AMP100.  

 

This "house sound" notion makes me wonder:  Who at Onkyo, NAD, Cambridge Audio, etc.. etc... serves as the Master Sound Sommelier?  Who is charged with tuning tweaking, adjusting the tone, texture, nuance of the sound ALL WITHOUT HAVING an actual measurable effect on the signal?  ..So how do they do this??  And how does one MSS pass the "house sound" recipe to the next MSS when this nuanced house sound isn't quantifiable,  measurable, or even describable? 

 

Years ago I had an NAD 7250PE receiver and was given my fathers 7240PE receiver which was 4 years newer..   I opened both up and noticed how each had parts from different sources.  ..Parts that said Sanyo on one were Toshiba on the other (I may be misremembering the exact brands but they were different).  ..Like every part that had a name, it was different on the other!  I wonder how "House Sound" is preserved despite the fact that different parts are being used form one generation product to another.

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11 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

I believe this to be a myth.  As I said before, my Cornwall IIIs sound exactly the same to me and everyone in my family regards of whether they're being driven by my Mac amp (replete w/ autoformers) my Onkyo AVR or my $130 AudioSource AMP100.  

 

This "house sound" notion makes me wonder:  Who at Onkyo, NAD, Cambridge Audio, etc.. etc... serves as the Master Sound Sommelier?  Who is charged with tuning tweaking, adjusting the tone, texture, nuance of the sound ALL WITHOUT HAVING an actual measurable effect on the signal?  ..So how do they do this??  And how does one MSS pass the "house sound" recipe to the next MSS when this nuanced house sound isn't quantifiable,  measurable, or even describable? 

 

Years ago I had an NAD 7250PE receiver and was given my fathers 7240PE receiver which was 4 years newer..   I opened both up and noticed how each had parts from different sources.  ..Parts that said Sanyo on one were Toshiba on the other (I may be mis-remembering the exact brands but they were different).  ..Like every part that had a name, it was different on the other!  I wonder how "House Sound" is preserved despite the fact that different parts are being used form one generation product to another.

 

I consider that you are in the same category as your family, that of the non-discerning listener. That is by far the most common group of people. Don't be ashamed that all amplifiers sound the same to you. You are just as normal as the great majority of the general public. What is surprising is how some "enthusiasts" spend so much money on equipment for what is essentially background music. Hey, to each his own I say!

 

But don't expect everyone else here to fall into lock step with you. Some do, some don't. Just because someone is more serious about this hobby and can hear differences you can't is no reason to fret. Just do what you do, and we'll do what we do.

 

Shakey

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

 

Sorry but I don't believe this at all.  I very much doubt that all those participating in Richard Clark's Amplifier challenge were suffering from "dread, fear of failure and catastrophizing"  Remember, the weren't betting their money against his, it was win $10k or lose nothing.

 

It's like saying "I'm an expert chess player, I display exemplary strategy both offensively and defensively."   ..Then, after losing, saying "Well, the my skills deteriorate whenever I actually play chess."

 

To beginners still following the discussion I'd point out:  Just how significant and important could differences b/w amps really be if an audiophiles ability to discern them is so fragile that it completely collapses from the pressure of being asked to actually identify them.  ..just seems incredibly far-fetched to me.

 

You seem to have a blind and unquestioning belief in the DBT/ABX religion. 

 

That's great for you.

 

Please, however, stop trying to impose your orthodoxy on everyone - especially the new audio hobbyist who needs to listen to a wide variety of gear, gain experience and learn to trust their own ears.

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

 

Sorry but I don't believe this at all.  I very much doubt that all those participating in Richard Clark's Amplifier challenge were suffering from "dread, fear of failure and catastrophizing"  Remember, the weren't betting their money against his, it was win $10k or lose nothing.

 

It's like saying "I'm an expert chess player, I display exemplary strategy both offensively and defensively."   ..Then, after losing, saying "Well, the my skills deteriorate whenever I actually play chess."

 

To beginners still following the discussion I'd point out:  Just how significant and important could differences b/w amps really be if an audiophiles ability to discern them is so fragile that it completely collapses from the pressure of being asked to actually identify them.  ..just seems incredibly far-fetched to me.

 

What seems far fetched to me is your seemingly blind and unquestioning belief in the DBT/ABX religion. 

 

If that works for you, great.

 

Please, however, stop trying to impose your orthodoxy on everyone - especially the new audio hobbyist who needs to listen to a wide variety of gear, gain experience and learn to trust their own ears.

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