Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[TubeHiFiNut]

10 minutes ago, Don Richard said:

 

Obviously, but the goal should still be to arrive at the truth. The difference with audio that I see is that some folks dismiss the ABX blinded test as invalid when they can't hear differences. However, they do believe they can hear differences when they swap the same equipment while knowing what is hooked up. No proper level matching, no instantaneous switching, no controls at all, and the ABX test is the one that is flawed? Sheesh.

The DBT for pharmaceuticals tests a biological response to a chemical stimulus. Even then, some participants receiving the placebo report an improvement in their condition.

 

Audio is 100% perception, and we all perceive things differently.

 

You cannot define how what we hear when we listen to audio turns into the specific emotional response that the individual listener feels. They haven't invented this test yet.

 

The ABX/DBT test looks for 1. Differences and (sometimes) 2. Any preference.

 

Thank you very much but, for me, the Observational Method I use provides me with better results and is a lot more fun.

 

Just my opinion and YMMV.

[oldtimer]

But the goal should still be to arrive at the truth.

[oldtimer]

1 minute ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

The DBT for pharmaceuticals tests a biological response to a chemical stimulus. Even then, some participants receiving the placebo report an improvement in their condition.

 

Audio is 100% perception, and we all perceive things differently.

 

You cannot define how what we hear when we listen to audio turns into the specific emotional response that the individual listener feels. They haven't invented this test yet.

 

The ABX/DBT test looks for 1. Differences and (sometimes) 2. Any preference.

 

Thank you very much but, for me, the Observational Method I use provides me with better results and is a lot more fun.

 

Just my opinion and YMMV.

But it sounds more like you are talking about content.  A specific emotional response is usually determined by such.

[TubeHiFiNut]

1 minute ago, oldtimer said:

But the goal should still be to arrive at the truth.

Please Clarify. So one system, one technology, one truth for all?

[oldtimer]

Nah, one truth per person.  Alternative facts rule.  (my post was a response to the third time is the charm btw)

[TubeHiFiNut]

1 minute ago, oldtimer said:

But it sounds more like you are talking about content.  A specific emotional response is usually determined by such.

Disagree. The level of emotional response is absolutely determined by how the system conveys the content.

 

I love Beethoven's 9th, but have found that, on a bad system, it does not speak to me with the same depth of feeling.

 

Just my opinion and YMMV.

[oldtimer]

You aren't a musician, are you?

[ODS123]

59 minutes ago, Deang said:

@ODS123 You said something that would shred the ears and inexpensive. I made a recommendation - and you complain about the lack of a balance knob!? The idea was to listen and send it back. 

 

“Please recommend something that sounds like shit that I can pass on to my kid.”

 

 

No, I didn't say return it.  I said audiogon it. Buying something knowing I would be returning to the seller strikes me as a bit unethical.  ...And it occurred to me that my son might want to use it at school.  ..Wouldn't want to spend a ton on something apt to be abused. 

 

Is there a problem w/ wanting a balance control.  ..Is that apt to kink the comparison?  

 

 

[TubeHiFiNut]

13 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

You aren't a musician, are you?

Played all the bass clef brass and sang in choirs all through school. Still sing occasionally with some amateur groups. Nothing formal on stage for a lot of years.

[oldtimer]

I still have the working turntable I bought while at school.  You either take care of your hard earned stuff or you don't.  And yes, there were lots of parties.

[oldtimer]

1 minute ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Played all the bass clef brass and sang in choirs all through school. Still sing occasionally with some amateur groups. Nothing formal on stage for a lot of years.

Sort of close...lol

Rock on

Mileage does vary.

[TubeHiFiNut]

2 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

I still have the working turntable I bought while at school.  You either take care of your hard earned stuff or you don't.  And yes, there were lots of parties.

I hear you. I still have stuff from back then too.

 

Still works great.

[Deang]

There’s nothing unethical about it, that’s why they offer a 45 day return policy - so people have an opportunity to try something before they buy it. 

 

You asked for an amp to try for the purpose of an experiment. I suggested an amp. If you want something full featured, then buy the Sony AVR Jason suggested. I’m sure your son will enjoy toting it back and forth to school. 

[oldtimer]

Oh shut up Dean.

[Deang]

No problem. I’m done here, good grief. 

[oldtimer]

You know I was joking...

[ODS123]

7 minutes ago, Deang said:

There’s nothing unethical about it, that’s why they offer a 45 day return policy - so people have an opportunity to try something before they buy it. 

 

You asked for an amp to try for the purpose of an experiment. I suggested an amp. If you want something full featured, then buy the Sony AVR Jason suggested. I’m sure your son will enjoy toting it back and forth to school. 

 

Buying something just to use in a blinded test w/ my family knowing I'll be returning it afterward makes me uncomfortable.  So I'll either agon it or give it to my son.

[jason str]

24 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

No, I didn't say return it.  I said audiogon it. Buying something knowing I would be returning to the seller strikes me as a bit unethical.  ...And it occurred to me that my son might want to use it at school.  ..Wouldn't want to spend a ton on something apt to be abused. 

 

Is there a problem w/ wanting a balance control.  ..Is that apt to kink the comparison?  

 

 

 

The Sony and Sherwood both have balance controls.

[oldtimer]

That's honest if you are already sure you will hate it.  And it is practical not to want to put up with shipping and returning.

[robert_kc]

It seems to me that the unanswered question is this:  Does ABX testing yield meaningful results for the sound quality from a hi-fi system?    I believe this is a separate issue from the usefulness of ABX testing for completely unrelated types of tests (i.e., not audio related) in completely unrelated fields (e.g., pharma)?   

 

I understand that no one may be able (currently) to answer the following questions. 

 

Is anyone who is reading this thread from an organization that is equipped to investigate questions such as:

 

• Can most people listen to 2 different music samples (A & B ) that have subtle sound differences, and then listen to Sample X, and reliably identify whether A or B is the same as X?  What percentage of the general population can remember 3 audio samples?  What percentage of trained listeners?   What are the limits of human memory of sound?
   
• How to explain the phenomenon that many people who participate in formal tests (e.g., ABX, DBT) cannot reliably identify differences in sound quality (e.g., different amps, or different bit rates for recordings), whereas many life-long hobbyists report that they can readily hear differences via their casual listening observations?

 

I don’t have the answer to these questions.   I’m just saying that I think it would be useful to science, and the hi-fi industry, for these questions to be investigated by a qualified professional services organization that is well equipped to do so.