Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[Tizman]

I’m pretty sure that if Mac made a SET amp, it would be very good and very, very shiny.  But they don’t.

[jimjimbo]

30 minutes ago, Tizman said:

As I mentioned earlier, a previous employee at McIntosh said it was common knowledge (though not openly admitted) that NO ONE there was able to reliably able to distinguish their SET amps from their S/S amps.

That's very interesting.  And, obviously, bullshit.

[jimjimbo]

1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

As I mentioned earlier, a previous employee at McIntosh said it was common knowledge (though not openly admitted) that NO ONE there was able to reliably able to distinguish their SET amps from their S/S amps.

Well, that's very interesting, and obviously bullshit.

[jimjimbo]

31 minutes ago, Tizman said:

I’m pretty sure that if Mac made a SET amp, it would be very good and very, very shiny.  But they don’t.

If they made one, I would buy one.  But they don't.

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

 . Their tube amps are PP/ Ultralinear using gobs of global feedback - which is why they sound a lot like SS. 

 

Dean you might want to research this a little more 🙂. 

 

McIntosh Unity Coupled Designs are far from a PP/Ultralinear type of design and performance.

 

I’m curious in what way do you mean it sounds like SS..?  

 

While some Ultra Linear type amplifiers using the EL34 Ultralinear Design (Think Dynaco) can remind me of having a edginess similar to some SS amplifier designs of the past. My favorite EL34 amplifier is the Marantz 8B which doesn’t have the edginess of the Dynaco and Knight amplifiers I have serviced, owned and listened to many times.

 

I’ve serviced MC 30, MC 40, MC 225, MC 240 and MC 275 (original versions) and MC2000. I’ve listened to all of these models many times as well as many of that later generations of the MC 275. With Klipschorns my personal favorites are the MC 225, MC240, MC275 original as well as later versions of the 275 and while I like the MC2000 sound I’m not crazy about it’s build from a reliability standpoint.

 

miketn

 

 

[Tizman]

I don’t know that much about Mac tube amp topology, but was under the impression that it was, as Dean mentioned, similar to PP/Ultralinear.  I’ll do a bit of research on it, as different topologies interest me.  Could you please give us a brief description of the differences for the sake of brevity and clarity in this thread?

 

[Deang]

Oops.

 

Mike, I didn’t research it at all, but made an assumption based on the OP’s earlier comment that current McIntosh tube amps were sonically indistinguishable from their solid state amps. The only time I experienced something like that was with an Ultralinear design. 

 

So which of their amps are Class B - I always wondered what that would sound like. 

 

Thanks for your comments. 

[mikebse2a3]

I want to say IMHO it’s more important now than at any point in the past that people let go of their preconceived ideas of the past about amplifier designs and there associated sound and actually listen for themselves preferably on the loudspeakers they are to be mated with. Sometimes things just come together in such a synergistic way that will just bring you more pleasure and it’s a very personal experience and matter of personal preference. 

 

I think my best advice for a beginner is make it your goal to put together a system that connects you to the music and draws you in to the point that you can listen for hours on end with “0” listener fatigue. Don’t settle for less 🙂

 

miketn

 

 

 

[mikebse2a3]

54 minutes ago, Deang said:

Oops.

 

Mike, I didn’t research it at all, but made an assumption based on the OP’s earlier comment that current McIntosh tube amps were sonically indistinguishable from their solid state amps. The only time I experienced something like that was with an Ultralinear design. 

 

So which of their amps are Class B - I always wondered what that would sound like. 

 

Thanks for your comments. 

 

Hey Dean 

 

Because of the Unity Coupled Circuit all of these tube designs by McIntosh operate in or close to class B without any of the drawbacks associated with previous class B designs. Ever wonder why Output Tubes can last for decades in a McIntosh? It’s because they can be biased so near to cutoff and that greatly improves the life of the Tubes. All aspects of performance that  McIntosh claims for the unity couple design is true and while like anything audio sometimes whether some prefers the McIntosh versus say a SE Triode design is the interaction between amplifier and loudspeaker and how that synergy matches someone’s individual taste but the McIntosh design is excellent and has stood the test of time as well IMHO .🙂 

 

Here is the patent for Unity Coupling

 

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/2a/6d/d4/be68c276d799a1/US2477074.pdf

 

 

[Deang]

Truly interesting. Thanks Mike. 

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

Mike, I didn’t research it at all, but made an assumption based on the OP’s earlier comment that current McIntosh tube amps were sonically indistinguishable from their solid state amps.

 

Well I don’t know about sonically indistinguishable. I know in my experience some of the older SS Preamps like the C28  had a edgy sound in the high frequency many associated with SS equipment. 

 

I currently own the McIntosh C50 preamp and bi-amp my Jubs with 2 McIntosh MHA100 headphone amplifiers (50 Watts @ 8 ohms and 80 Watts into 4 ohms according to McIntosh tech I spoke with) and all I can say is it’s among the best if not the best sound synergy with my Jubs so far for me. I still love my Cary Tube Amps and First Watt F3 amps on the Jubs as well it’s all good 😄 

 

miketn

 

 

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, Tizman said:

I don’t know that much about Mac tube amp topology, but was under the impression that it was, as Dean mentioned, similar to PP/Ultralinear.  I’ll do a bit of research on it, as different topologies interest me.  Could you please give us a brief description of the differences for the sake of brevity and clarity in this thread?

 

 

I can’t really do better than Gordon Gow’s description in the video Tizman. 

 

Some quick points off the top of my head:🙂

 

The unity coupled transformer and circuit allow the output Tubes to operate into nearly 1/4 of the impedance of a typical Ultralinear transformer which has advantages in linearity when driving the transformer/speaker load. The Output Tubes in Unity Coupled Design can be biased very low without worrying about tube cutoff notch distortion which is why Ultralinear designs require a higher standing bias to minimize this distortion and results In shorter tube life as well. The Unity Coupled output transformer also has a much wider bandwidth than a Ultralinear Transformer as well which again improves linearity and phase response of the output stage of the amplifier.

 

miketn

[Dave A]

4 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

If he's promulgating the myth of cable break-in (seriously?) and amp break-in (not mentioned in the owner's manual, but he's said it elsewhere) it becomes hard to know whether or not to take seriously his remarks about Speaker break-in.  ..No, I probably wouldn't tell him I distrust him on these counts.  ..He's cranky.  

 

I loved my 3A sigs, but I never bought into his claims about time coherence/ alignment, etc.    ...I listened extensively to them and liked them enough to buy them.  ..I sold them b/c they aren't meant for the kind of SPLs necessary for home theater.  I now need my floor-standers to perform double-duty: 2-channel for music, L/R front for HT.

So once again you know more than someone who designs speakers for a living.

[TubeHiFiNut]

1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said:

I think my best advice for a beginner is make it your goal to put together a system that connects you to the music and draws you in to the point that you can listen for hours on end with “0” listener fatigue. Don’t settle for less 🙂

 

miketn

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said:

I think my best advice for a beginner is make it your goal to put together a system that connects you to the music and draws you in to the point that you can listen for hours on end with “0” listener fatigue. Don’t settle for less 🙂

And go listen to systems comparable to what you are thinking of to see if that is really what you want before you buy anything.

[ODS123]

2 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

I think my best advice for a beginner is make it your goal to put together a system that connects you to the music and draws you in to the point that you can listen for hours on end with “0” listener fatigue. Don’t settle for less 🙂

 

 

If you can listen for hours with "0" listener fatigue then you may be missing something from the original performance because an accurate system WILL eventually cause listening fatigue   That is, if the goal of a system is to recreate the live performance.   Live music, even when played by the best musicians, WILL eventually cause listening fatigue if listened to loud enough and long enough.  Woodwinds, trumpets/cornets, flutes, even violins If listened to long enough will begin to grate.   This is partly why I long ago insisted on tone controls.  After 3 or 4 hours of listening, a 1/4 counter clockwise turn of the treble control will allow me to continue on.  

 

Remember, our  hearing did not evolve to endure endless loud noises such as that we encounter during concerts.  ..Apart from a loud waterfall and maybe crashing waves, our hearing is not prepared for continual loud music, even orchestral music.

[MEH Synergy]

2 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

I want to say IMHO it’s more important now than at any point in the past that people let go of their preconceived ideas of the past about amplifier designs and there associated sound and actually listen for themselves preferably on the loudspeakers they are to be mated with. Sometimes things just come together in such a synergistic way that will just bring you more pleasure and it’s a very personal experience and matter of personal preference. 

 

I think my best advice for a beginner is make it your goal to put together a system that connects you to the music and draws you in to the point that you can listen for hours on end with “0” listener fatigue. Don’t settle for less 🙂

 

miketn

 

 

 

Your second paragraph IMO is VERY important.   Why bother with a hyperdetailed, excellent sounding system if you can't bear it at more than a whisper or for more than 30 minutes at a time.   Complete failure if I were to own it for myself.   

[MEH Synergy]

8 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

If you can listen for hours with "0" listener fatigue then you may be missing something from the original performance because an accurate system WILL eventually cause listening fatigue   That is, if the goal of a system is to recreate the live performance.   Live music, even when played by the best musicians, WILL eventually cause listening fatigue if listened to loud enough and long enough.  Woodwinds, trumpets/cornets, flutes, even violins If listened to long enough will begin to grate.   This is partly why I long ago insisted on tone controls.  After 3 or 4 hours of listening, a 1/4 counter clockwise turn of the treble control will solve the problem.  

 

Remember, our  hearing did not evolve to accommodate loud noises such as that we encounter during concerts.  ..Apart from a loud waterfall and maybe crashing waves, our hearing is not prepared for continual loud music, even orchestral music.

You sir are the skeptic of all skeptics.   I missed the other 1000 or so pages, but what is your experience in audio or music as a whole besides all linear amps sound the same and no one on earth can tell the difference?   Damn I wish I still worked in a music studio and could bring you in.   Your posts would all be irrelevant in your own opinion within hours as long as you were able to pass a basic hearing test.  

[ODS123]

As an aside, I'm enjoying day 388 of water-damage and corner-dent free bliss with my MDF Cornwall III's.  Fingers crossed. 

[MEH Synergy]

Just now, ODS123 said:

As an aside, I'm enjoying day 388 of water-damage and corner-dent free bliss with my MDF Cornwall III's.  Fingers crossed. 

Look, I'll be real, I'll take an MDF speaker ANY DAY.  I was quite fond of the Cornwall IIIs I had and would gladly take them back and live with them permanently.   Many here will disagree with me on that, I don't care.   However, your extremes at the other end is why this thread is going on and on and on.  I agree with @Shakeydeal, it seems that you just aren't a critical listener which is OK.   Many of us here are.   Please, don't advise those new to audio of rhetoric BS that everything is the same and only speakers matter.   That my friend is BULLSHIT.  I don't care whether PWK would have agreed or not.  Electronics have come A LONG way since he unfortunately left this earth.   So so many good value priced choices nowadays, you would have to have a thick layer of cotton balls in your ears to say everything sounds the same.  I have owned those speakers, and they are quite resolving.    BTW, when I demoed them for the buyer, he almost didn't buy them as he stated they sounded AWFUL on a vintage Yamaha receiver.   Guess what I did?  I had him help me carry them into my living room and took 30 minutes or so hooking them up and positioning them just so and guess what?   He said "DAMN, Thai is the best sounding system I have heard, and I have heard A LOT".   His words, not mine.  They were hooked up to a Parasound Halo Integrated playing FLAC to high res files.