Dave A Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 11 hours ago, ODS123 said: You guys are sore because you can't abide someone shining a light on the fact that this hobby suffers from a complete lack of honesty or validity controls - something that I am sure would vex our patron saint PWK. Still, I'm happy this fine morning because I awakened to find that my MDF Cornwall III's have lived to see yet another day despite a startling lack of structural integrity and weather proofing. HA ha ha HA HA HA HAHAHA "You guys are sore because you can't abide someone shining a light on the fact that this hobby suffers from a complete lack of honesty or validity controls " YES the TRUTH at last. I am mad because I am not you and suffer from a terrible mental malaise caused by what U/said. Heh heh heh, snort, HA HA HA!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillyBob Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 instead of locking the thread, maybe categorize the material so it can be referenced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Deang said: I thought Rich was suggesting to stop participating, and that’s what I was agreeing with. However, I also believe that at the point a person is clearly baiting and trolling, it’s perfectly okay to lock a thread. Well Dean others are participating in this thread and it appears to me they are offering good insight as well so why should they be shutdown just because others don’t seem to be able to walk away and ignore the thread if it frustrates them? miketn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, WillyBob said: instead of locking the thread, maybe categorize the material so it can be referenced. Maybe move it to the lounge but please don't get this thing killed. The humor here is priceless and personally I can't wait to see what gem OD comes up with next. Yah know what OD? I am not quite certain you own anything or have done anything you claim to be honest. But then I am part of the dishonest and jealous and deceitful quagmire all in the audio world find themselves except for you. OD the 1,000,000 lumen laser focused light of truth shining on the the sordid world of audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 7, 2019 Moderators Share Posted January 7, 2019 34 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said: I see no reason to justify locking this thread and I believe censoring should be the absolute last resort...!!!! IMHO it’s better to let all sides state their opinions and offer their evidence and facts of why they have formed their opinion. Then everyone can decide for themselves which side of the debate they fall on. 🙂 If you are tired of the thread just walk away and spend your time doing something that would make you happy. Long ago I protested the shutting down and editing threads instead of dealing directly with the offenders of the forum rules and I still believe this. It is by a persons actions and thoughts revealed in time that will help expose the truth and any motives behind what we do. If you want this thread to stop quit participating and it will die a natural death. Just ask yourself if you would like your opinions to be buried because someone else disagrees and then you might sence the danger in such actions and why it should be a last resort...! miketn Plus it is incredibly entertaining, like the bears or monkeys at the zoo. As long as it doesn't get personal, knock yourselves out. Happy New Year. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 7, 2019 Moderators Share Posted January 7, 2019 14 minutes ago, WillyBob said: instead of locking the thread, maybe categorize the material so it can be referenced. Sure let me get right on that. Would you like it cross-referenced while I am at it? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 7, 2019 Moderators Share Posted January 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, Deang said: I thought Rich was suggesting to stop participating, and that’s what I was agreeing with. However, I also believe that at the point a person is clearly baiting and trolling, it’s perfectly okay to lock a thread. If that happens please let us know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: Plus it is incredibly entertaining, like the bears or monkeys at the zoo. As long as it doesn't get personal, knock yourselves out. Happy New Year. YES not only can I come to the forum and be educated with all the good stuff here, being serious now, I can also be entertained 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 7, 2019 Moderators Share Posted January 7, 2019 Just now, Dave A said: YES not only can I come to the forum and be educated with all the good stuff here, being serious now, I can also be entertained Being serious here also, I learn something useful nearly every time I come here. Travis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 hour ago, ODS123 said: (I stipulated modern amps that engineered to be linear). Okay ODS123. Please define exactly what linear means. You keep saying it, but it would be useful to define it in terms of specs. Given your claims that all modern amps that are engineered to be linear sound the same, at what point is an amp no longer “a modern amp that is engineered to be linear”? If you are going to give advice to newbies, you need to define what you mean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 21 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: 37 minutes ago, WillyBob said: instead of locking the thread, maybe categorize the material so it can be referenced. Sure let me get right on that. Would you like it cross-referenced while I am at it? Here. Let me help out. Folks should use the search feature and they will find everything they need in this thread and others. Btw...Now that you're back, can we open up that Facebook thread? Seriously. Now that some time has passed can we rethink some slightly political that doesn't get personal topics? Just askin' and if the answer is no I can dig it, but...:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, Tizman said: Okay ODS123. Please define exactly what linear means. You keep saying it, but it would be useful to define it in terms This is a good question. I can only speak in the terms of SS and that is that the amps benchmark the same in output and distortion categories. This is why I think if folks compared different AVR amps in the same price category they will find the processing is more expensive the more bells and whistles you get but also the quality of amps increases insofar as power supplies and amps are concerned....Insofar as Multichannel systems are concerned I think the easy solution is: 1) Decide on your speakers (by hearing them) 2) Know the power requirements for them 3) Pick the processor in the AVR that meets your needs. In larger rooms or more channels an external amp may be required. That's my take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_kc Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 14 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: This is a good question. I can only speak in the terms of SS and that is that the amps benchmark the same in output and distortion categories. This is why I think if folks compared different AVR amps in the same price category they will find the processing is more expensive the more bells and whistles you get but also the quality of amps increases insofar as power supplies and amps are concerned....Insofar as Multichannel systems are concerned I think the easy solution is to 1) Pick your speakers 2) Know the power requirements for them 3) Pick the processor in the AVR that meets your needs. In larger rooms or more channels an external amp may be required. That's my take. An AVR is not needed for multi-channel. I use Oppo universal players (UDP-205 x 2, BDP-105, BDP-95) that effectively have the pre-processor, bass management (i.e., RCA line-level subwoofer connection), and multi-channel DAC built-in. In other words, the Oppo players have RCA line-level connections for 2.0, 2.1, and 5.1. I use vintage tube amps. I recognize that John Q. Public will buy an AVR from the big-box store, but as I've said before, this is a hi-fi hobbyist forum, so I thought I'd offer a different perspective. IME, modern multi-channel (i.e., surround-sound) hi-res classical recordings, tube amps, and Klipsch speakers work well together. Just my 2 cents ... 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 45 minutes ago, Deang said: I thought Rich was suggesting to stop participating, and that’s what I was agreeing with. However, I also believe that at the point a person is clearly baiting and trolling, it’s perfectly okay to lock a thread. === my suggestion was tongue-in-cheek with no intent to have this locked. However nearing 50 pages, much of which is inane back and forth, I thought 50 pages should have quenched every “beginners” thirst. I’ll now read from afar and see how many more enlightened pages are written as we slog to 75 — 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: I can only speak in the terms of SS and that is that the amps benchmark the same in output and distortion categories. This is why I think if folks compared different AVR am Ahhh but even distortion audibility as it relates to our perception is called into question by some well respected amp designers such as Pass and I posted recently an interview with Dan D’Agostino of originally Krell and currently under his own name where he reveals that he has come to the conclusion that designing his amplifiers based on lowest possible distortion of past standards isn’t the best sounding. It appears we still have much to learn and should keep an open mind while exploring what passes the ultimate test for humans “The Listening Experience” 🙂 miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, robert_kc said: An AVR is not needed for multi-channel. I use Oppo universal players (UDP-205 x 2, BDP-105, BDP-95) that effectively have the pre-processor, bass management (i.e., RCA line-level subwoofer connection), and multi-channel DAC built-in. In other words, the Oppo players have RCA line-level connections for 2.0, 2.1, and 5.1. There is more than one way to configure a system and yours definitely seems to work for you but most folks aren't going to buy an Oppo. AVRs is the cost effective way to go in the hobby of multichannel music and movies. 13 minutes ago, robert_kc said: I use vintage tube amps. AWESOME! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 That is pretty awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said: It appears we still have much to learn and should keep an open mind while exploring what passes the ultimate test for humans “The Listening Experience” 🙂 I've experienced my journey and will let those who have now better hearing engage/enjoy theirs. That said, still can't imagine it getting too much better than what I heard tonight and now must make my lovely wife dinner! 😎 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said: Ahhh but even distortion audibility as it relates to our perception is called into question by some well respected amp designers such as Pass and I posted recently an interview with Dan D’Agostino of originally Krell and currently under his own name where he reveals that he has come to the conclusion that designing his amplifiers based on lowest possible distortion of past standards isn’t the best sounding. It appears we still have much to learn and should keep an open mind while exploring what passes the ultimate test for humans “The Listening Experience” 🙂 miketn === the great designers D’Ago, Pass, etc. always find new ways for increasing performance whether it distortion, neg feedback, TID, etc. With my Pass XA25 he once again finds power transistors never before used for audio and isolates a type of distortion he refers to degeneration. Its this type of progress and innovation that indeed, Yes, amplifiers can and do have their own flavor— 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said: Ahhh but even distortion audibility as it relates to our perception is called into question by some well respected amp designers such as Pass and I posted recently an interview with Dan D’Agostino of originally Krell and currently under his own name where he reveals that he has come to the conclusion that designing his amplifiers based on lowest possible distortion of past standards isn’t the best sounding. It appears we still have much to learn and should keep an open mind while exploring what passes the ultimate test for humans “The Listening Experience” 🙂 miketn It is a tricky subject for sure. Distortion is already recorded into any recording for playback, so additional amp distortion does exactly what? Even harmonic distortion is generally agreed to be more pleasing but many would say it is just additional coloration. Clearly a certain absence of distortion is desirable in an amp but as you say there can be a cut off where less is well, less. People have differing experience levels regarding what live sounds like, further compounding their preferences. Add to that the recent introduction (historically) of electrically amplified instrumentation and even voices which have lots of purposefully distorted sound played live, and it is no wonder there is a lot of confusion and differing opinion and preference. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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